Bishop: So I understand you need a recommend.

Adam: Yes but I didn’t come here for that though

Bishop: Oh okay

Adam: I came by to straighten out what happened last week. You talked to (my wife) about (my son). I was kind of upset about some of the things that you said about it.

Bishop: Okay.

Adam: So I wanted to go over the things with you said with you lets see if we’re on the same page. It kind of bothers me because we have to teach our kids about sexual things about touching himself. I don’t think he’s ready for it. If we bring it up now it’s going to bring up curiosity. He knows nothing about it right now and I don’t want to bring it up to him now. I’m not ready for it yet and I don’t think he is.

Bishop: I sense that you’re not ready for that and you’re saying that he’s not ready for it.

Adam: Right

Bishop: I appreciate your point of view. I appreciate your concern as a parent. And it is your right you will be held accountable for what you’ve taught or not taught.

Bishop:My role as a bishop is to perform the interview. I’m not the one that makes up the questions. I”m not the one who says what is going to be left off the interview or put into the interview. I”m the one who’s given the guidelines of what I have to say. But I’m given some leeway on how to say that. Do you have the print out of what I do in the interview?

Adam: I do, I read that.

Bishop: What part of that is your concern?

Adam: That you would bring up to him about other people seeing his private parts, him showing it to other people or him touching himself.

Bishop: That’s not exactly how its worded.

Adam: I know it’s not in here but did you say that to (my wife) as what you were going to say?

Bishop: yes, I did. And how I say that and if you’d like me to find it in there or I can find it in mine.

Adam: I have it right here.

Bishop: You can either read it to me or I can read it back.

Adam: I read it before. About the swimming part.

Bishop: Before she came she had not read that.

Adam: Yeah we just got this the day before so we hadn’t read over the whole thing yet.

Bishop: Right and so how she approached me was “Bishop you will not ask this question” and my response was well I’m the bishop. I have a calling and I’ve been set apart and sustained as the bishop. And I’m not the one who chooses to do the things personally I would not want to discuss any of that with anybody. But that’s not my job that’s not my decision. 

Adam: Do you feel that she was questioning your authority because she asked the question?

Bishop: It’s the way she presented it to me. “Bishop you will not ask my son that question.” I’m sorry but you can’t tell me the questions I have to I pulled out the paper and if she has a problem with me I would prefer that she come in and discuss it with me cause first of all my intent is not to offend anyone or to make anyone feel bad. But here are the actual questions that I am supposed to ask. The law of chastity which prohibits any sexual activity outside the bonds of legal marriage between a man and a woman. Have you been taught that? Or excuse me, you’ve been taught that membership in the church of Jesus Christ of Latter day Saints includes living gospel standards. Do you understand the following standards and are you willing to obey them? That’s the question I have to ask. Now an 8 year old. Will he understand what the word sexual means? Will he understand what the word relationship outside the bonds of marriage means? Will he understand what between a man and a woman means? No, he won’t. So my way (that I have asked the president is it okay if I do it this way) to cover this. And they have said yes you may ask. Most children have not been exposed. Okay, so that’s my explanation. So what I ask is when you go swimming why do you were a swimsuit? Now a child boy or girl can very innocently say well we wear a swimming suit to cover ourselves. That is correct we wear swimming suits to cover our private parts. We do not show our private parts, we do not touch our private parts, we do not allow others to see or touch our private parts. Are you willing to obey that as part of the law of chastity?

Adam: He’s not going to know what that means about touching his private parts and so it’s going to bring up a lot of questions.

Bishop: I understand that but in today’s society we have members who work for the church who have just now been caught and are being convicted of molesting children.

Adam: Right

Bishop:We have kids whose parents molest them we have neighbor kids who molest neighbor kids. What you’re asking me not to do is to ask a question that is part of the baptismal interview that would allow for an opportunity for him to understand something that happened to him if it ever has.

Adam: My worry is that it will bring up curiosity and possibly experimentation especially when he asks you what you mean by that he’ll say of course I touch myself when I go to the bathroom I have to touch myself.

Bishop: That’s right all of us boys do. Now your job as dad and your wife’s job as the mom is to teach so that when the natural tendency comes they know it is wrong and they don’t do it. Come to church next week because I have been instructed by the stake president to give a whole hour lesson on this subject because we have 8 year olds that have come to the attention of the stake president who are hard core pornography viewers. I grew up in Layton where the neighbor kid will introduce pornography to the neighbor kid some 30 years ago. And our friends son were one of those who were impacted by that neighbors actions. So my point is you can not shelter your children if you choose not to teach them that’s your choice. But I’m telling you as the bishop (and from what I’ve had to sit and hear from this side of the desk and from talking with the other bishops in our stake and bishops when I go to the big meeting) you are making a mistake if you do not at least start teaching some aspect of that by the time they’re 8 years old. And sometimes it needs to be 5 and 6 years old. So I don’t know what your wife told you but she misrepresented what she was told by the primary president. What she told me because I went to the primary president and said what did you say? So right now I have a concern. And so I’m sharing that with you my concern. That misrepresentation that occurred.

Adam: Okay

Bishop: (10:15) I will not ask this question if you choose not to have him come in to be baptized as for the interview. That’s your choice. But if he does come in I will ask why do we wear swimsuits are you willing not to show your private parts and the reason I’m asking that is because even at 8 Satan is working his hardest to influence kids and you can not shelter the kids enough in your home to prevent every evil influence that can get to a child from getting to that child. Be it a radio, be it a television, be it even commercials for kids cartoons they have sexual innuendos that we don’t recognize unless you actually sit down and analyze whats happening. So I’m coming back forcefully because I’ve been on this side of the table. When I got people confessing problems I’ve been on this side of the table not this actual table but talking to a bishop who says I have a child whose been masturbating since he was 9 years old did not know what it was and now I can’t get him to repent or change because he didn’t know at the time it was wrong and the parents never knew what was happening and now he can’t go on a mission because he can’t break that habit. So when you sit there and tell me… these are all the emotions that I’m going through because I have other experiences and your family may be perfect you may never have a problem with any of this and I hope your kids never do have molestation, see pornography in any form, or have those feelings and intents that Satan can put in a kids heart. I hope that you guys are immune to that but that’s where I’m coming from. And if I don’t carry out my duties I’m gonna be held responsible just as you as parents are gonna be held responsible if your children are not taught. You’re taking care of your side. I have to take care of my side.

Adam: yeah

Bishop: So that’s that’s the thing that your wife and I tried to talk about and I don’t know if I got through and I probably upset her immensely. And I apologize if I upset her but I don’t dare stand in this position in this time until they release me and not fulfill my calling. Cause frankly I don’t want anybody elses problems on my head. I’ve got enough of my own. (12:18)

Adam: Right I’m sure you see you share of the good, bad, and the ugly stuff that comes in here. That’s stuff you have to deal with.

Bishop: I love the good. The bad and the ugly, I sit and think how could we have prevented it and you know what the problem that I keep facing is parents weren’t involved. Because well I’ll just tell you straight out they didn’t believe that their little Johnny or little Suzzy would ever do that or they just ignored the signs that were there. And, (sigh), the kids are too precious too innocent to have somebody else outside of mom and dad teach em. One of the hardest things I’ve ever done was take my 8 year old and start initiating the birds and the bees and you know what they knew more than what I was trying to teach them about and we just kind of went whoa. Who talked to them because we never approached that subject. So that’s my concern.

Adam: Okay. I guess the way I see it is similar but I think that each child should be based on a each child basis. Um, we don’t try to shelter our kids, we don’t want them to be naive we want them to know whats going on but at the same time we try to have an active role in teaching them everything that were supposed to and keeping them from the evils of the world not necessarily sheltering them but keeping them pure and innocent.

Bishop: The innocence is not there anymore.

Adam: At 8 years old?

Bishop: The world has not allowed them to be innocent. (14:20)

Adam: It hasn’t gotten to our children. I’m not naive about that. I know there is a lot of bad things out there but we homeschool our kids, we know which friends they hang out with and were very selective on who babysits them. Um, we are involved in almost every part of their lives especially this young.

Bishop: Congratulations, you’re doing a fabulous job, but it isn’t enough.

Adam: But they’re still innocent they’re little children.

Bishop: At 8 they become accountable

Adam: Right

Bishop: And there’s an influence out there that you cannot encounter except by actively teaching or pursuing. Satan knows your children because he lived with them in the pre earth life. He knows their weaknesses he knows their tendencies and no matter what you’re gonna do to protect them he’s going to find a way to attack their character ??? 15:16

Adam: They’ll make mistakes

Bishop: I’m not talking about mistakes, I’m talking about every influence that you said you’re doing to protect your children that’s wonderful keep it up but that’s not enough. It’s not.

Adam: Well what else can I do? I do teach them what they need to know.

Bishop: And that’s what my point that I’m trying to get across is. We think well I didn’t even know what happened to Annette when I was a teacher when we had the first (15:48) bishop meeting that talked about these things every day lined out. Kids not only at 14 not only know all about that stuff but are participating in that stuff. We’ve had to move (And this is the stake president this is not -name removed- the Bishop speaking) We are having to move these topics down lower. I have to talk with every parent about their children masturbating at 11 years old. That’s next week. Do you think I’m embarrassed? Do you think I’m worried about that? That’s at 11. And at 11 its already a problem. So, I have parents who have been just like you. We protected our children we’ve watched everything and they’re the ones who come back six months later and say bishop I’m sorry. Our children, we don’t know. And they are good solid parents. And I think what happened. Did they fail as parents. Um well theoretically I’d say they did. But Satan is there and Satan’s dominion is there. Those feelings and urges are maturing in children at such a young age. You’ve got kids that are pre jr. high school who are able to get pregnant those hormones are changing at a younger age bring feelings and emotions of confusion. And we, you know your children you know what you need to teach them but I still feel strongly that this is not inappropriate for this age to make sure that they know that 1 you shouldn’t look at other people’s privates, you shouldn’t touch other people’s privates, and you should never allow anyone to touch yours. Have you ever allowed your child to go into a rest room by themselves? Some day you will have to and you better hope that their armed that if some guy approaches them they know how to appropriately respond.

Adam: Well we have talked to them about those things it’s just my point that I feel really weird about having someone else talk to him about it alone with him and I don’t know how he’s going to react and how he’s going to take it.

Bishop: Well, how I explained it to your wife is first we talk about it and every child is usually embarrassed about swimsuits and private parts. Then I invite the parents to come back in and we go through exactly the same questions all over again only now I’m coaching… what did you tell me, tell your parents, what did you tell me tell your parents so that they are telling you what they told me.

Adam: Sure

Bishop: That way there is nothing that we discuss that you are not aware of that was discussed. How it was discussed and how they perceived it. That empowers the parents to go okay I need to touch up on this I need to explain this. I have kids who come in here and don’t know what the law of tithing is. Who never heard what the word of wisdom is.

Adam: Sure

Bishop: So, I know every child at 8 is not familiar with the law of chastity because I’ve got 12 year olds coming in here who don’t know what that term means. So I can be delicate. I have 4 boys, I’ve raised 4 boys past this stage and it is not easy to talk about it but I can tell you that it’s easier after you’ve talked to them about it to have them come to you with a concern or problem in the future then for them to come say what’s this? What’s going on? So as I told your wife this is bishop council you are free to choose to do what you will with that. I am not your parent of your child but I am required to go through the baptismal now if you would rather I read those directly that is my option but I don’t feel comfortable with that with an 8 year old.

Adam: Right, that would be worse.

Bishop: But everybody I’ve talked to about this, that is appropriate for that age. So, I am apologizing if I offended your wife. I apologize if I come over strongly to you, but I’m mandated by my calling and direction from the stake president to be direct do you want me to pull out the mission questions that are now being asked?

Adam: Have they changed?

Bishop: Oh yeah. The letter that I send out a year before they go on a mission have you ever had any touchings of a girl? Have you ever dated a girl? Have you ever felt any homosexual tendency? Have you ever masturbated at all ever in your life? Have you ever seen pornography ever in your life? Okay, these are 17, 18 year olds who are being asked these questions that were only asked when I was going in for a marriage interview.

Adam: Right

Bishop: So it’s shifted down. So if you don’t feel comfortable with me asking those questions um that’s your choice I think you’re making a mistake by delaying baptism heaven forbid should he be killed in a car accident that’s something that you should have to deal with.

Adam: Are you saying that he’s going to go to hell if he doesn’t get baptized right away?

Bishop: No I’m just saying that’s additional work that would have to be performed after he’s passed away. Is not 8 the age of accountability?

Adam: That’s what the scriptures say.

Bishop: Is not 8 the age that each child or person become accountable for their actions? Is not age 8 once you’re baptized when you can take the atonement and apply it to your life through weekly taking the sacrament?

Adam: Sure

Bishop: So a person who’s not baptized when they’re 8 and they become accountable who’s gonna become accountable for their actions thoughts and deeds at that point?

Adam: The parents

Bishop: The parents, so your wife’s and yours concern about teaching your children I believe fails in comparison to what is at stake that you’re making these decisions for. I’ve had little girls in here who had no idea what we talked about who were very comfortable with saying well yeah I always wear a swimsuit.

Adam: You have to ask the girls the same questions about touching themselves?

Bishop: Identical. I say it in such a manner those kids don’t pick up on it but if they had ever been abused the door is then opened that the spirit can prick their heart they can then say oh yeah I’ve had somebody and I dread that ever happening. But it’s there and unfortunately in today’s society it happens and parents don’t always know. So the way I ask it is when you go swimming why do you wear a swimsuit. We wear swimsuit to cover our private parts. We don’t let others see our private parts, we don’t touch our private parts, or touch or see other people’s private parts. That’s the law of chastity. Are you willing to do that? And most every kid it goes right above their head. Well yeah I’ll wear my swim suit when I go swimming. That’s the way I do it. That’s delicate enough. Most kids understand it and it’s the parents who are embarrassed that I’m talking about masturbation and talking about other things along that line. Now 4 years ago I would have been extremely embarrassed to even say that word.

Adam: Right

Bishop: So, you can see that this calling, this position has put me in a position where (sigh) I’m not comfortable with it but I understand the importance of it because I’ve had too many kids sit in that chair right there and say, uh, I want to get married in the temple or I want to go on a mission, or I wanna be ordained this… And I have to say I’m sorry but you’re not worthy. It’s 6 months before a kid can even be interviewed to go on a mission if he ever participated in that act and not repented of it fully. So I hope I’m getting across the severity and the churches position.

Adam: Yeah, I understand the severity of it. And I see where you’re coming from. Um I just have to think about it then when were ready for him to be able to talk about those things then we can go forward. Um…

Bishop: I think you’re putting too much precedence on this as a parent concerned, then letting the spirit of the lord direct what the interview is actually for and about.

Adam: I would just like to be able to teach him those things when he is ready for it and I don’t think there is any way he is ready for that.

Bishop: Have you talked to the other parents that have all of their other children go through this and be baptized?

Adam: A lot of my friends that had their children baptized recently. Their interviews were really simple they just asked if they believed in Jesus. And they didn’t ask every question.

Bishop: Well then they’re not doing their job.

Adam: Okay. I just don’t think that the policy should be correct in every instance with every child. I don’t think… I wanted to know what was right. I wanted to know what the churches stance was on this and from what you’ve told me it sounds like it’s been changed a little bit, it’s gotten a little more strict saying more things to younger kids about sex.

Bishop: This is what I ask. You know what um, if you would like to go talk to the stake president I would love to refer you to talk to him.

Adam: Okay.

Bishop: Um, and you can ask him. Take my letter, say this is what the bishop was gonna discuss. Um…

Adam: It’s not you, we don’t have a problem with you at all

Bishop: Just, yeah well just…

Adam: It’s the policy that confused us and that bothers us. Um, the one thing that I did pull up, and if it’s changed, it’s changed but uh, the church used to say that, um, that sex education was the full responsibility of the parents, and that it can’t be shifted to the church.

Bishop: Mm hmm. So am I teaching it?

Adam: Well you’re bringing it up where it could make him curious about it.

Bishop: And whose responsibility is it to teach it?

Adam: Well, we want to teach him but just not yet. We want to wait until we feel it’s the right time.’

Bishop: And when when’s that?

Adam: When the Lord directs.

Bishop: Do you feel that the Lord could direct me into bringing these up in the questions?

Adam: Well I think that, as my role as a parent, I would have the right to teach him first.

Bishop: Yes you do. And my council as the bishop is if you’ve waited till after he is 8 you’ve waited too long.

Adam: How much do you…

Bishop: You can take that how you will.

Adam: How much do you suggest that I teach children when they are 8 years old?

Bishop: Do you go swimming with your children? Do you have them wear swimming suits? When they run around the house butt naked do you tell them to go put clothes on? At that age that’s sufficient. Boys will touch themselves. They need to know that it’s okay when you’re going to the bathroom. I don’t know how exactly you wanted to touch it, but we had to very delicately talk to our kids, “You don’t play with yourself.”

Adam: Sure and we’ve told him that.

Bishop: Then you’ve already taught him more than I cover in this letter.

Adam: Right. I just don’t want it brought up with other people. He doesn’t know you that well. He barely sees you at church and that’s about it. And it’s just gonna be…

Bishop: Then I would be very sad that he doesn’t know the bishop well enough to know a bishop’s interview because his whole life he’ll be asked very embarrassing questions by men he barely knows that are his priesthood leaders.

Adam: Well he’s only 7 and we’ve only been here for a year.

Bishop: He’s been in here to get treats from me. I see him in the hall, I talk to him standing up in primary. He knows me probably better than some of the other kids I’ve done interviews who are members of the ward, um, much other than just, well their parents don’t come. So, I’m sorry but I can counter all of your arguments. One because I’ve heard a lot of them before. And two, um, I’m not gonna…

Adam: Not gonna touch?

Bishop: Not going to be responsible for not asking the appropriate questions when I have been given a mantle. You’ve already taught your children these aspects. We just discussed that. I don’t go into depth. And I’m…put off’s not the right word. I’m a little offended that you don’t trust me as a bishop to know sensitively how to cover these subjects at an age appropriate age.

Adam: We’re not upset at you at all, it’s the policy that we don’t agree with. We think that the church should respect the wishes of the parents.

Bishop: Oh so go ahead and write the First Presidency and (laughs) you tell him, write the same, go to the stake president, and if I’m not in line, you can bet that he will come down and not only will he address this bishop, but he’ll call a bishop’s meeting and all of us bishops will be put back in line. But I’m telling you from my meetings previously, and from my writing up and from my discussions with what he’s having us talk about, um, 8, 9, 10, 11, what age are you saying should be the appropriate age for them to be taught this?

Adam: Depends on the kid.

Bishop: Kay. That is not the way we have been instructed as bishops.

Adam: Why do we have to do it exactly that way as a parent? Because I feel like I’m forced to talk to him about masturbation before his 8 year old interview for baptism, and I don’t want to.

Bishop: That’s the way you guys are interpreting it because of your nervousness in discussing it. You’ve already told me you’ve talked to your son about not touching himself. You’ve already talked to him about not wearing clothes. That’s the extent of the interview questions. Do I use the “M” word is what it said? Never! Never. That’s not age appropriate. Now when they’re 12 and they’re going to deacons camp, uh, I’ll bring up a little more forcefulness. When they’re a teacher, 14, 15 years old, you bet I’m hitting it pretty heavy because they’re seeing friends at school, um, looking at inappropriate stuff. They’re seeing their friends laugh and joke about inappropriate stuff. My concern is if we don’t teach them at a younger age Satan’s not giving up. He’s not pulling back and well yeah that child’s not ready to be taught that or that deacon, he’ll never do that.

Adam: Nope

Bishop: Satan’s gonna make sure that those opportunities are presented and the only way you can count that is to be taught. So if you’re doing your job teaching him then I won’t have any worries. But your teaching your children doesn’t mean that we have no responsibility. And yeah I feel really strongly that they need to understand there are basic modesty, law of chastity issues at 8 years old to be baptized. Why do you think we shut the curtains when the kids come out of the water to be baptized? Well there dripping wet and white clothes become more see through, its a modesty issue. So, I mean, I am sensitive to these things, but, um… Do you feel you have to teach your child all the aspects about masturbation before you have the interview with me? That’s your choice. But I’m saying your perceptions are incorrect, if we go into that. If you’ve read the whole letter.

Adam: I have.

Bishop: You understand that there’s 2 sentences maybe 3 sentences. This is advice to the parents. The actual sentence that I say I’ve already repeated twice.

Adam: Right

Bishop: So, um, how you choose to go forward that’s your choice. Again, I apologize if I offended your wife. I apologize if I offended you, but I’m not gonna apologize for the stewardship that I have to maintain. Um, I’ve got kids that I really love that I would like to see on missions. I’ve got kids that I’d like to see have temple recommends, to be ordained, or any slew of other things… They can’t. I’ve got good friends with married children that are now struggling in their marriages because of something that happened when they were 6, 7, 8 years old. And that is heart wrenching for them and for us who love that family.

Adam: I’m sure it is.

Bishop: And I’ve also have good friends who homeschool. I know all about that. I don’t know if you know the (name removed), she’s a big leader in home schooling.

Adam: My wife has met her before.

Bishop: Fabulous lady. More outspoken then anyone else you want to know on that and any other subject, that she’s passionate about.

Adam: Yeah.

Bishop: But she’s talked about how you still can’t protect your children. As much as I’d like to say all the kids in primary are angels… They are not. And to come to church, they’ll be associating with kids who are probably not as well behaved as they should be.

Adam: Sure

Bishop: And if you’ve watched the commercials that kids watch between cartoons. I don’t know I’m presuming you have a TV in your home.

Adam: Well we canceled our cable so we just let them watch movies and cartoons that we have on DVD and things like that.

Bishop: We, we actually didn’t have any television for years. Didn’t miss it at all.

Adam: That’s good.

Bishop: um, it wasn’t until the kids got into sports. Actually my wife was bedridden for almost a month or so with our one child when we finally bought a television because she was just going stir crazy.

Adam: Hmm

Bishop: It was a VCR and television. The point is I commend you on your desire to protect your children but Satan’s gonna find a way to get around that he always has always will. And so we can only encounter by teaching instruction and praying like crazy and hoping that the child’s choices, because we still believe in free agency, we can’t force our kids.

Adam: Right

Bishop: Will make the right decisions. So my point is you tell me when (my son)’s ready to be baptized. I think he’s ready as soon as he turns 8.

Adam: Okay, we’ll let you know.

Bishop: Okay, and please, um, my concern is that your words are we don’t agree with the church policy. Um, I believe there’s a living prophet. I believe that the living prophets advise apostles. I believe that apostles advise stakes presidents and I believe that stake presidents advise bishops. And I believe bishops advise elders quorum presidents, high priest group leaders, relief society presidents, and that’s the chain of how the Lord organizes his church. Do I always agree with every policy the church has always had? No, but it’s my will that’s always been out. And as I get more knowledge and more information I understand that I’m the one who needs to conform with the way the Lord has his established doctrine teachings and whatever. That’s all I’m gonna say about that. Um, you’re welcome to go to the stake president. Take him a letter and say we feel it is inappropriate for the bishop to discuss that and if he gives me the wicker? I will gladly skip that sentence or whichever thing and part it is so that (your son) can be baptized as soon as possible.

Adam: But he is the one that taught you.

Bishop: he is the one who has counseled me as bishop. And I have taken his counsel and this is my interpretation of… (Picks up paper)

Adam: That question.

Bishop: The question is are you willing… What do you understand of the following standards? What do you understand about the law of chastity? And he will say, I don’t know what that means. And then I’ll say, It prohibits any sexual relationship outside the bonds of legal marriage between a man and a woman. And he’s gonna look at me with a blank stare because he’s not going to know what any of those words. Oh he might giggle at sexual because kids hear that word even though we don’t teach it at home it gets heard. Um, are you willing to obey that? And now he’s gonna be asking me well what does that word mean? What does this mean? What does that have to do with being married? And that is where I think it becomes harder because now I’m explaining something that the parents should have explained. By posing the question this way, it’s the most delicate way I can find to ask the question for that age group that makes it relevant… unless you can come up with a different example.

Adam: Yeah, I don’t know.

Bishop: Because every parent I’ve talked to just like you and your wife have taught them, well know we wear swimming suits. Well know we don’t touch. Well I’m, no really I’m asking you, is there another way to fulfill the requirement?

Adam: Well, that’s the part I don’t agree with. About with some kids maybe if you knew they were having problems. If the parents knew and they let you know about that. Um, but I would rather, honestly, not bring that up to him. At least not by another person.

Bishop: Well let, let let me change this then. Um, so, um… let’s switch that sexual out for word of wisdom. Mom and dad drink beer. Mom and dad like a cup of coffee. So do I not ask that question?

Adam: That’s kind of different.

Bishop: I don’t see it differently because it’s a standard of the church. (41:17)

Adam: that’s a principle of the gospel.

Bishop: Is not the law of chastity a principle of the gospel?

Adam: Yes, but sex education or just even briefly mentioning something about masturbation when their that young, I don’t like it.

Bishop: how can you teach the principles without them understanding the base behind it and it’s not the word masturbation they’re taught.

Adam: Sure

Bishop: You’ve already… The point that I’m trying to get across is you and your wife have already taught them to be modest and to not touch. You’re nodding your head yes, this is the third time I have asked this.

Adam: But why do you have to ask him about that?

(Audio: Paper shaking)

Adam: Right

Bishop: That’s why. This is… It’s a standard of the church. That’s what sets us apart from most other religions is our standard on the law of chastity. I’m sorry you don’t agree with it. I’m more sorry that you don’t understand the reasoning behind all of that because in our discussion I’m getting the feeling you don’t.

Adam: I’m trying to that’s why I came. I didn’t want to be upset and not come. I didn’t want to be upset and not come to you about it.

Bishop: You know what, Thank you. Because more often when I said to people they stew about it and it really eats into their souls and I never get a chance to find out what’s going on. How did I offend? My purpose is not to offend on purpose. But as the bishop I was counseled very early on you’re going to offend people just because you’re the bishop. Um, I have a mantel I have to wear. And until they release me I have to fulfill those responsibilities and obligations that I am, command is not the right word, but I have to do it. Just like you have to take care of your children. Yeah, I can’t see you or your wife ever walking away and abandoning your children. Why? Why couldn’t you do that? Other people do that. Why do I not see you and your wife doing that? It’s because you love them and you care for them, and you’re concerned for them. It’s the same feelings that this bishop has towards the ward members. And I would rather offend people by cuttin’ to the point then being guilty of not doing the duty or saying the things because when I meet him I want to be able to say I did my best I followed what I was asked to do to the best of my ability. And for those places I fell please forgive me. This is an easy one. In fact I’m actually really surprised how far this has gotten because I’ve usually been able to explain to the other parents to the point where they see that it’s a valid question. And the way I’ve approached it in the paper that you have (sigh) is least embarrassing for me, least intrusive for that child, and gives the parents the maximum opportunity to go with it how they will. So, um…

Adam: Okay

Bishop: Let me get you a piece of paper. Um, this is Robert Sowers to contact and his number is … He is the stake executive secretary. Just call him, he’ll make an appointment. Um, you can be sure that I will be called in by the stake president and he’ll discuss with me what you discuss with him and he’ll tell me the resolution. But if you feel comfortable after you hear from him you can come talk to me. Just know that I will be called back to talk to him about it because if one member of the stake has a concern then all the bishops will hear about that concern.

Adam: Okay.

Bishop: And if they redirect, I will comply with what they say. It may become harsher. He may say bishop you’re not carrying the intent far enough. So…

Adam: Okay.

Bishop: there you have it. Um, Know I will bring it up to the stake president and say that you have a concern with this and that uh you’re choosing to not to have the interview come forward because of, and I’ll give him a copy of my letter, and say stake president do I need to change this? I have actually the, all the bishops have a meeting with him next Tuesday 7:00. So I’ll bring that forward and make sure that I am still following the directions that i’ve been given. Are you comfortable with that?

Adam: That’s fine.

Bishop: Okay. So, just so you know it’s not (Bishop’s name) who is doing this out of ??? (47:17)

Adam: I understand that.

Bishop: And if I don’t have to ask those questions, I’m more comfortable not.

Adam: Okay.

Bishop: Is there anything else I can do for you?

Adam: That’s it.

Bishop: Okay. I do appreciate you coming and talking to me. And I know I’ve done a lot of the talking because since your wife came in I have thought about this a real lot. And so I don’t want what I do as a bishop to impact your family, your future, your activity in the church, whatever you have. The church doctrine the teachings of our Savior is the most important thing. And you guys are doing your best to teach your family and I applaud you. It is not easy going around teaching ??? (48:19) And I recognize that you guys are choosing a harder path because you want what is best for your children. I can’t fault that. You’re doing a great effort. It’s hard. I’ve watched the Hamptons. I’ve watched other families. The Young’s who moved out, they chose to homeschool their children.

Adam: Yeah.

Bishop: It’s not easy. You’re the staff. The kids who are homeschooled actually do extremely well.

Adam: That’s what attracted us to it.

Bishop: So, um, just don’t be upset with the church policy. It’s just the way things are. So…

Adam: Okay.

Bishop: Are you okay?

Adam: Yeah, well we’ll think about it. Pray about it. We’re not going to make any rash decisions.

Bishop: That’s good. And he doesn’t turn 8 till…

Adam: The end of the month.

Bishop: Yeah. So, we’re all rootin’ for ya. We want your family to be a celestial eternal family AGAIN!! Um, If we as parents could take care of that without a church organization you know the Lord would have it set up that way. Because, well… but in society today … organized church we can’t. So…

Adam: alright.

Bishop: I go around appointing and disappointing people with bishop stuff. And um, convey to her my apology if I offended her that was not the intent. Do you have anything else to say?

Adam: I think that’s it. I appreciate you talking to me.

Bishop: Oh! This is easy stuff.

Bishop talking quietly… When parents come to me and say what do we do if we don’t want to come to church any more what do I do? If we don’t come to church anymore what do we do? And that’s what Satan’s for. You have a cute family. The boys will be obnoxious and rambunctious…?… the Lord compensates for our efforts on that. And I can say that because I’ve got 4 boys.

Adam: Right

Bishop: And I was the naughty one in our family. I was the one crawling on the benches over the benches, yelling and screaming…

Adam: Alright, well, thank you.

Bishop: I’m curious, if you can come up with an easier way for me to fill this and still get it across, I’m open to suggestions.

Adam: Okay

Bishop: But in talking with other bishops they said wow you’ve actually found a delicate way to ask the questions to approach it so that if there is a problem it comes out.

Adam: Right.

Bishop: And um, (Sigh) I hate the way society is now because it is forcing our hand.

Adam: Yeah, it makes us sad that it has to be like that.

Bishop: Yeah, the stake president spent two hours in a room and that’s when he gave us this assignment for the talk next week to bishops. You need to recognize that Satan has stepped up his war, we haven’t stepped up our defense. Yeah, I’m actually really worried about how I’m supposed to cover, how I’m supposed to teach parents about the masturbation, about the pornography, about the all the things that are going on that our age and older refuse to accept because it’s so foreign to us.

Adam: Right.

Bishop: But it’s actively discussed and talked about in music, in the movies, and in the gym, society teaches it’s all fine and okay. And uh, if I’m hard forcing the hand repairs? To address that a little bit earlier I’m not going to apologize because I don’t think it’s too young at 8. And I keep referring back to that parent who came to with just your concerns and then come back six months later. I found out some things were happening that, uh, they didn’t know. And, um, their tone was much different.

Adam: I’m sure

Bishop: And I hope you don’t have to experience that.

Adam: Right.

Bishop: Um, but there’s bishops who talk to me that the parents were so naive would not talk about it wouldn’t discuss it, their child is now engrossed in horrible addictions. That’s the only word I can think of, addictions, that that child can’t get out of. And now the parents are become aware of it they can’t deal with it.

Adam: Hmm

Bishop: Mentally they just can’t understand.

Adam: It got pretty far.

Bishop: It did. And that child will probably never, how do I put it, will never go through the rest of their life without the chains of addiction tugging on them one way or another. Um, sigh. I don’t know what else to say. I… I hear that poor bishop and I think I just don’t want that to have any of that going on. I’ve got enough problems already without it that severe. So keep up your good work. Be the good dad. Have your wife be the good wife. Have, you know. I hope everything goes fine. But it’s like you buy insurance not because you know the house is going to burn down it’s because if it’s going to burn down.

Adam: Right

Bishop: You just gotta prepare. Thanks. And I’ll see you next Sunday in priesthood. Library will be closed.

Adam: It is?

Bishop: I want you guys in there. If you’re wondering why my concerns are it’s because this is stake directive.

Adam: Okay.

Bishop: Take care, thanks for coming in.

Adam: Thank you.