[toc]There has recently been a public disclosure of a sub rosa recording of the Disciplinary Council held against Jeremy Runnells for the reason of Apostasy. While the court was initially held against Runnells with the anticipated outcome of excommunication, Jeremy’s exit from the church was very different from what anyone had in mind. This post explores what actually happened and why every person who decides to leave for reasons of church history should understand the rationale for the very specific way that Jeremy did it.
Background
In 2012 lifelong LDS member Jeremy Runnells went through a faith transition after learning things about Mormon church history, leaders and doctrine which he believed contradicted the truth claims about the religion. A Church Education System (CES) director invited Jeremy to compose a letter summarizing his difficulties. In response, Jeremy composed an 84-page document which he shared with the CES director and the public, known as “Letter to a CES director” or simply “The CES Letter”.
The Court of Love
The church ultimately responded to Jeremy’s letter and his actions and statements by holding a disciplinary council against him on 17 April, 2016. The council started as they usually do. The procedures are described in the Church Handbook of Instructions (Book 1, section 6.10.4, archive.org).
The stake president stated the charge of apostasy, asked for Jeremy’s plea, and proceeded to state the evidence against him. After reading the charges, the Stake President bore his testimony of the church and then gave Runnells 45 minutes in which to make a statement.
What was supposed to have happened was that Jeremy was going to rale against the church in his bitter apostate way for 45 minutes, and then the leaders would dismiss Jeremy while they prayed and then the Stake Presidency would withdraw and confer and the Stake President himself would make the decision and then return and get the unanimous sustaining vote of the High Council. There is little doubt that the decision would be excommunication. Jeremy would have been called back into the room and informed that he had been excommunicated from the church.
Flipping the script
Instead of that deplorable sequence of events, what actually happened was this. When Jeremy was invited to make a statement, he spent several minutes summarizing his faith transition and then laying out some of the most significant issues that affected his ability to accept the truth claims of the church. He asked several questions of the president, which were not answered. He asked any of the high council members themselves to declare if they had read the CES letter or even any of the Church Essays which confirmed the facts of the CES letter. None did.
Finally, Jeremy made the following statement:
I’ve done nothing wrong. I stand today with my head held high. I’m morally clean. I have a clear conscience that I have done nothing wrong. So, because you guys are not answering my questions, and you guys have not answered my questions the last three years. It is very clear to me that the church does not have answers to its truth crisis. The church does not like individuals asking questions about it’s truth claims. So, this is a kangaroo court. I’m done with this court. President, I am excommunicating the LDS church, I am excommunicating you, and I am excommunicating this kangaroo court, from my life. Here is my resignation letter. Goodbye.
He handed them the letter, stood up and walked out. The Disciplinary Council was over.
The How and Why
What Jeremy did is unprecedented and important for a number of reasons. To summarize, here are the key aspects of Jeremy’s departure from the church which are critical to consider:
- He did not resign instead of being subject to a disciplinary council.
- He attended the council and listened to all the charges against him.
- He documented his council by recording it.
- He submitted a resignation letter to the Stake President after the charges against him, but before they dismissed him to deliberate.
- He immediately left the hearing.
Let’s take a look at each of these aspects of his resignation and see why they are individually so important. When you yourself are faced with a disciplinary council for the reasons of apostasy because you have been vocal about your conscience regarding the church, keep these things in mind.
Don’t resign – attend the council
A person who commits some grievous sin in Mormon culture will be called to a disciplinary council and have that sin exposed to a group of 12 men plus the Stake Presidency. People who have gone through the process describe it as one of the most embarrassing and shameful experiences of their life – having their most intimate details laid bare to men whose very purpose is to pass judgment, even if done with lip-service about “love.”
If you hear that a person is being called to a disciplinary hearing, chances are that only a handful of sins that require such procedures will jump to your mind. Adultery or fornication would be probably the foremost. These sins deal with temptations and transgressions that are among the most common and worthy of the rumor-mill that inevitably exists in any close social circle such as an LDS ward or stake. If the issue comes up, church leaders will cite pastoral confidentiality and only state that the reasons for a disciplinary hearing are private and that sins which require that level of attention are serious and so the importance of keeping the confidence of the member is paramount. If you were in a council with the bishop and he responded with that statement when asked about why a certain member couldn’t participate in a ward activity – would you assume it was because the member had a faith crisis after learning church history or that they had gotten their freaky on? Be honest.
Even if you have been very public about your disaffection being the result of Church History and Doctrine – the rumors will leave the question open. Mormons already assume that if you leave the faith, then you have no moral compass and your human appetites and desire for carnal pleasures will lead you to the depths of hedonistic debauchery. This will be the unspoken narrative of your exit.
Furthermore, the culture of works based salvation that exists within the church places a great deal of importance on the appearance of righteousness and the concept of accountability. If you resign rather than attend a disciplinary hearing against you, then the unspoken narrative will be further that you wanted to avoid accountability for your transgressions. Since minor sins like raising your voice or drinking tea don’t require that level of discipline then the rumor that will circulate is that you committed something as grievous as adultery and that rather than face the men of the High Council and be subject to the humiliation and shame of the repentance process, you chose to resign.
Then all of your statements, Facebook posts, and conversations about your problems with church history will be interpreted as someone who is just trying to cover their own sins by pointing the finger and finding fault with the church and its leaders rather than facing the consequences of your own sin.
By attending the disciplinary hearing Jeremy could prove that he was not trying to avoid accountability for anything he had done. This is an important defense of your reputation and standing in your community, no matter where you are.
Listen to all the charges against you
Once you are called to a disciplinary council, any number of charges may be made against you. People who are not in attendance at the hearing will not be told what those charges are and so if the Stake Presidency and all of the High Council are 100% good at keeping confidences, even from their own spouses, then chances are that no one else will know why you are at the council. If you are being disciplined for something like adultery, then there is no big deal because everyone is going to assume something like that anyway. If your reasons for being there are simply due to your problems with church history, however, then the silence from the leadership about your reasons for discipline simply feeds a false narrative that you are there for some heinous moral transgression as we discussed in the prior section.
If you show up to your hearing and then resign at the start of the process rather than waiting till after the charges have all been made, then you won’t be able to document the actual reasons for being called to the hearing (important in the next section).
By waiting until all the charges had been made against him, Jeremy was able to be certain that no false narrative about some major moral transgression would be intentionally or inadvertently circulated within the ward or stake.
Record the hearing
First of all, become familiar with your state’s recording laws. Here is an excellent reference. Once you have determined that you are in a “one party consent” state and recording is a legal possibility, then find some way to record at least the audio of the proceedings. There are many options available.
Chances are that your leaders will try to get you to commit to swear or sign a contract indicating that you will not record the procedures in any way – their ultimate interest is protecting the reputation and interests of the church, without any regard for your own reputation. They will want you to sign a statement promising not to record and they hold you to a high standard of honesty. Chances are that if you are subject to church discipline in part because of discovering the dishonesty of past church leaders, then you probably place a premium on your own character of honesty. They use this fact to compel you to keep your word and make no recording.
Remember that the church has a long history of making misleading statements to its members and government authorities in order to protect the reputation of the church and its leaders. The most recent and famous of these denials is contained in the Gospel Topic essay on “Plural Marriage in Kirtland and Nauvoo.” There we learned that Joseph Smith had in fact been marrying multiple women (including other men’s wives and 14-year-old girls) and yet, when news of this leaked, “the rumors prompted members and leaders to issue carefully worded denials that denounced spiritual wifery and polygamy but were silent about what Joseph Smith and others saw as divinely mandated “celestial” plural marriage.” Any honest person would call those statements outright lies. The associated footnote #22, however, explains that the reason these “carefully worded denials” were not lies is because they had come up with a secret definition of polygamy which meant marriage of one man to more than one woman but without Church sanction.
If the church can come up with a secret definition to protect its reputation and also shield itself from accusations of outright lying, then so can you.
Recording the hearing is essential. By recording the proceedings, including the list of charges him, Jeremy was able to document that the reasons his church discipline were not due to moral transgression, but because his knowledge of and vocal opposition to the deplorable and contradictory parts of church history and its implications for the truth claims of the church. He was able to document his side of the story in his statement to the High Council.
A second valuable aspect of recording is that it captures the degree to which Church Disciplinary Hearings are one sided, barbaric and the worst sort of spiritual and ecclesiastical abuse. Jeremy’s council was all of these things and if more of these types of recordings are released, then it increased the pressure on the church leadership to consider revising the process and hopefully will improve the experience for the next generation of members who will certainly have a much higher percentage of individuals undergoing vocal faith crises.
Submit your resignation before being dismissed
If you are excommunicated from the church, then you are allowing the church to control your narrative for the rest of your life. They will always be able to say that they excommunicated you. They looked at your character and judged you unworthy of fellowship in good standing among the saints. This will color how every other person in your life who is a member of the church will view you. The degree of influence that the church holds over the hearts and minds of the members means that even your close family and loved ones will have to place you in a certain “box” in their life. It may mean that they feel more compelled to help you or reach out to you or it may mean they feel a need to avoid you or have their children avoid yours. Until they themselves distance themselves from the control of the church it is almost inescapable.
Even with your own knowledge of the problems of the church and its absent foundation, the process of being rejected and expelled from the tribe which you grew up in and with whom you once felt acceptance can take a silent toll on your psychology. You couldn’t keep the faith. You didn’t measure up to the standard of faith. When the church is the one who rejects you, it is you who were subordinate and who were acted upon. It is a power over you which lingers, even when its tendrils of influence seem far removed.
If you have studied church history and doctrine to the extent that you are aware of their absent foundation of truth, lack of divine sanction and authority – then you have no basis upon which to submit yourself to their authority at the final act of separation. To allow yourself to be rejected by them is to continue to give them a power for which they have no legitimate claim.
Don’t give them that power. It is vitally important that you do not give them that power.
The procedure of a disciplinary council is outlined in the Church Handbook of Instructions. There is an order of events. It is only after the charges are presented and you have had a chance to make a statement that the Stake President will dissmiss you and deliberate. You are not officially excommunicated until that deliberation takes place – but as soon as you are out of their presence, they can claim to have excommunicated you before having received your notice of resignation if they haven’t received it yet. You must submit your letter of resignation before you are dismissed and before they deliberate. While it can be verbal or a simple as the words “I resign” scribbled on a napkin, it must be given before they confer.
Remember, your membership in the church is terminated the moment you declare your resignation. The written letter is really only so there is a document to demonstrate it, but your verbal declaration is sufficient as well. There is no waiting period, no secondary meetings that have to take place – nothing like that. All those things are simply the paperwork and red tape that the Church does on its side to clear you from their databases to update the fact that you have already removed yourself from their authority and jurisdiction.
The moment you resign, you remove your consent to being subject to any further disciplinary actions. On the off chance that a misguided Stake President goes ahead and excommunicates you anyway, then you are justified taking legal action against the church for invasion of privacy and infliction of emotional distress. The church is aware of this and Church due to legal precedent, the church stopped post-resignation excommunication some years ago. ((see example of legal precedent at MormonNoMore.com))
You don’t have to make a statement or a defense as Jeremy did if that is not your thing. You can simply resign. Just make sure to do it after the charges have all been stated and before you are dismissed.
Leave Immediately
Once you resign, you are no longer subject to their discipline. If you stay in the hearing, they may misconstrue it as consent to continue with discipline. Don’t be ambiguous. By leaving the minute he declared his resignation, Jeremy avoided any further debate or discussion because none was justified. His resignation transformed the room from a group of men seated on thrones of pretended priesthood power drunk on their own hubris into a group of blue and white collar workmen who had no business knowing or having a say about anything in Jeremy’s life at all. Just the fact that they think they are entitled to weave their tendrils of authority into your life is reason enough to get the heck out of there.
Conclusion
One of the most common questions that is asked on message boards for people who are in a new place with the church because of problems with church history and doctrine is “Should I resign or should I let them excommunicate me?” Many reasons have been given for both approaches. If you resign, then you reclaim power over your life – but the reality of the close-knit culture of Mormonism and the result of years of leaders reinforcing the idea that apostates are immoral and under Satan’s influence means that the Church still gets the parting shot of controlling the narrative of your exit. It will be assumed that sin led to your departure. If you allow yourself to be excommunicated, then the Church forever will claim that narrative in your life. It’s the mortal wound they give you on the way out. You might not understand how deep the wound cuts.
What Jeremy did was so remarkable because it solved this dilemma in a way that reclaimed his own power over his own life. “I excommunicate the church from my life” – That statement is so potent because it asserts real authority. You are the owner of your life and your identity. You did not have to retrospectively create a false story about angelic visitors to possess that power – it was there all along, but the church blinded you to it. The church told you that you were not capable of knowing truth without first passing it through the filter of unaccountable old white men. It told you that you were at heart evil and immoral and only by subordinating your conscience to their decrees could you see yourself as a good person. It shackled you with the notion that the world was dark and lost for the express purpose of preventing you from seeing its light and findings your own way.
“I excommunicate the church from my life.” Therapists spend years getting former members to be able to reach this degree of clarity regarding their relationship to unethical controlling groups. Let that statement be the one that starts you out on a life which is determined by your own conscience, will and judgment. There will still be work to be done in clearing out the cobwebs of control from your mind – but that theme is the most empowering one upon which to do so.

I do wonder about the statement the church makes people sign at the beginning of the church court, which presumably includes a promise not to record the proceedings, and whether it’s possible that could have legal ramifications. For example, perhaps it were to contain some sort of provision stating that the signer is only invited to be present on the church’s property under such and such conditions the church is setting forth, and violating those conditions would result in the permission to stay on the property being withdrawn, so the person would be trespassing from the moment one of the conditions was broken.
Is it at all possible for someone to be trespassing before the hosts are even aware that they’re withdrawing their permission for the person to be there, and could they take legal action against that person after the fact? I have no idea. Can anyone actually tell us what that paper says? Somehow, I doubt Jeremy’s stake president will follow through on mailing him an unsigned copy, as he said he would.
One can sign anything if the church standards of lying for the lord are applied… JS stated no polygamy, Woodruff 1890 no more polygamy, charges of racist scripture etc… All can be viewed as lying for the lord. In my view simply lying,
The Holy Spirit left the council with Jeremy… Because, if I understand it right, the Holy Spirit only can exist in truth.
Does anyone, truly believe not one person in the room haven’t read at least one church essay. These men should feel very dirty. DIRTY.
As I say a lot, the truth only hurts if it should.
I experienced a “court of love” similar to Jeremy’s on April 9, 2014. Unlike Jeremy, I let the court excommunicate me. I wasn’t going to resign. (I yet trusted in the divinity of Jesus Christ, the prophetic ministry of Joseph Smith, and the historic reality of the Book of Mormon. I still do. In my mind, resigning from the LDS Church would have suggested to some that i disbelieved those things or abandoned the Saints. I could do neither.)
However, I admire Jeremy for “putting these men in their place.” They DO exercise unrighteous dominion and, as Thinkerofthoughts has adroitly observed, their religion lacks foundation (like that great and spacious building, high and lifted up, in which its occupants took so much pride, pointing the finger at those without).
WE HAVE NO CONTEMPORANEOUS EVIDENCE OR TESTIMONY that Peter, James and John ever conferred priesthood authority on Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdery in June, 1829 (or at any other time). No contemporaneous journal entries, letters, records, or histories. No evidence whatsoever that either Joseph or Oliver ever mentioned it to anyone until 1834-35, later “codifying” this “event” in scripture. It’s still POSSIBLE that it happened. (But, as the Catholics have proven, transmittal of authority does not guarantee retention of authority. How are the “works” of Mormonism any different from those of the Catholics?)
WE HAVE NO EVIDENCE WHATSOEVER that Elijah conferred sealing authority or “keys” on Joseph and Oliver in the Kirtland Temple in 1836 (or at any other time). On the contrary, Joseph testified (as late as the early 1840s) that Elijah had NOT YET COME to confer any such keys and, with the church, he anxiously awaited Elijah’s return, D&C 110:13-16 notwithstanding.
With that, my friends, the LDS Church’s foundation crumbles. There is no “foundation” there. The “church” of believers acting by faith in Christ and motivated by the Spirit has “morphed” into an institution lead by men, demanding faith in THEM, regulated by “priesthood authority” that can ONLY be “conferred” at THEIR hands. In essence, “they deny the power of God, the Holy One of Israel; and they say unto the people: Hearken unto us, and hear ye our precept; for behold there is no God today, for the Lord and the Redeemer hath done his work, and he hath given his power unto men” (2 Nephi 28:5). Thusly, Nephi describes the future (now apparent) apostate church of God.
The true “authority” of the church of Jesus Christ (or even The Church of the Latter-day Saints) rests NOT in any man or group of men — that would be “trusting in the arm of flesh” — but in God Himself, which authority, if conferred and received, is vouchsafed by the presence and witness by the Holy Spirit, manifest with attendant signs and powers. (See 1 Nephi 10:22; Moroni 8:28.) Without that, YOU HAVE NOTHING! Just dead works, disbelief, rituals and rigamarole. That pretty much describes the LDS Church today.
While I disagree with Jeremy’s conclusions regarding many of his arguments and questions, I do not fault him for refusing to “faithfully” follow those who have proven themselves to be blind, disbelieving and disoriented themselves.
“Remember, your membership in the church is terminated the moment you declare your resignation. The written letter is really only so there is a document to demonstrate it, but your verbal declaration is sufficient as well. There is no waiting period, no secondary meetings that have to take place – nothing like that. All those things are simply the paperwork and red tape that the Church does on its side to clear you from their databases to update the fact that you have already removed yourself from their authority and jurisdiction.
The moment you resign, you remove your consent to being subject to any further disciplinary actions. On the off chance that a misguided Stake President goes ahead and excommunicates you anyway, then you are justified taking legal action against the church for invasion of privacy and infliction of emotional distress.”
Actually, I think this is bad advice. The MormonNoMore website has been doling out this bad advice for years. The case cited there is Guinn v. Church of Christ of Collinsville, 775 P.2d 766 (1989).
Marian Guinn was a member of a Collinsville congregation of the Church of Christ. She had a sexual relationship with a man who was not a member. Elders of the Church confronted her on three separate occasions, told her to end the relationship, and to confess her sins before the congregation. She was told that if she did not do so, her sins would be published to the congregation. Guinn resigned her membership before her misdeeds were published, i.e. a letter was read during services.
Following her resignation, the Elders read a letter in front of her former congregation informing the members of her sins and urging them to work to get Guinn to repent and return to the Church. The same letter was sent to four other Collinsville congregations and read aloud. Those congregations to whom the letter was read represented about 5 percent of the total population of Collinsvilles.
In her suit against the Church and the Elders for invasion of privacy and intentional infliction of emotional distress, the Oklahoma Supreme Court held that following her resignation from the Church, Guinn was no longer subject to Church discipline. Thus, the Church and Elders could not claim immunity from suit based on the First Amendment.
After holding that the church defendants were not immune, the Court recited what Guinn had to prove to recover:
__________
In order to prevail on her claim for invasion of privacy by publication of private facts, Parishioner had to prove the four elements of that tort. She had the burden of showing that the Elders’ statements (1) were highly offensive to a reasonable person, (2) contained private facts about Parishioner’s life, (3) were a public disclosure of private facts and (4) were not of legitimate concern to the Church of Christ congregation.
Guinn, 775 P.2d at 781
___________
As the above quote shows, while Guinn may very well have been able to prove the tortious elements in her suit, the procedures of the Church of Christ are clearly distinguishable from LDS Church discipline proceedings. The Church does not read an indictment in front of its congregations when someone is disciplined. There is no attempt to publicly shame a person to return to the fold. Indeed, the Church does not comment on disciplinary proceedings. Suffice it to say that Guinn does not appear to offer strong support for an argument that the Church could not, if it chose to do so, proceed with a disciplinary council after receiving a letter of resignation.
Additionally, Guinn was decided by the Oklahoma Supreme Court so it is binding precedent only in Oklahoma.
So, a former member of the LDS Church might be able to sue and the Church might not be able to assert an immunity defense, at least in Oklahoma, but given the confidential nature of Church disciplinary proceedings, it is unlikely a plaintiff could ever prevail on a theory of invasion of privacy or intentional infliction of emotional distress.
Moreover, Guinn has limited applicability, as it is only precedent in Oklahoma and it applied to a set of facts which, as noted above, would probably not be replicated in the LDS context. Moreover, a subsequent decision, also from the Supreme Court of Oklahoma, addresses the same general issue but involving claims against the LDS Church. This case, Hadnot v. Shaw, is therefore substantially more “on point” that Guinn. ” Here is a link to the Hadnot case: http://tinyurl.com/zamxg5m
In Hadnot, the Oklahoma Supreme Court specifically addressed whether the Guinn case applied to the following facts:
A. The plaintiffs were sisters and were formerly members of the LDS Church in Chickasha, Oklahoma.
B. The defendants were the Church, the bishop and his counselors.
C. Parishioners were each notified of and asked to be present at a Church disciplinary hearing called to determine their membership status. Neither attended. Following the hearing both parishioners received letters from the Church. The letter addressed to parishioner Hadnot was placed in her mailbox. This letter, which was opened and read by her husband, informed parishioner that the Church court determined her membership should be terminated because of her alleged fornication. The other sister was personally handed a letter also signed by a lay leader, which informed her of the Church court’s decision to remove her from membership.
D. The sisters filed suit, apparently for “harm from wilful or grossly negligent delivery of the expulsion letters to parishioners” based on “(a) libel, (b) intentional or negligent infliction of emotional distress and (c) invasion of privacy (public disclosure of private facts, intrusion upon seclusion, and placing parishioners in a false light before the public)”; and “harm from communicating the letters’ contents to the public” based on “(a) slander, (b) intentional or negligent infliction of emotional distress and © invasion of privacy (public disclosure of private facts, intrusion upon seclusion, and placing parishioners in a false light before the public).”
E. Summary judgment was granted in favor of the defendants.
F. One significant factual difference is that the Church in Guinn believed that a church member did not have the right to dissociate from it (“According to their beliefs, a member remains a part of the congregation for life. Like those who are born into a family, they may leave but they can never really sever the familial bond.). This is a radical, even dispositive, distinction between the situation in Guinn compared to the beliefs and practices of the LDS Church.
6. The Oklahoma Supreme Court specifically found that “the trial court correctly applied Guinn.” Here are the specific excerpts of the decision, with commentary from yours truly:
“The church’s jurisdiction exists as a result of the mutual agreement between that body and its member,” and “(t)hat relationship may be severed freely by a member’s positive act at any time.”
-I agree with this principle wholeheartedly.
“Until it is so terminated, the church has authority to prescribe and follow disciplinary ordinances without fear of interference by the state.”
-I agree with this principle wholeheartedly.
“The First Amendment will protect and shield the religious body from liability for the activities carried on pursuant to the exercise of church discipline. Within the context of ecclesiastical discipline, churches enjoy an absolute privilege from scrutiny by the secular authority.”
-I agree with this finding, and am grateful for it. Now here is where it gets interesting:
“The church privilege extends in this case to activities or communications which occurred after excommunication if these may be termed as mere implementation of previously pronounced ecclesiastical sanction which was valid when exercised — i.e., that it was declared when Church jurisdiction subsisted.”
-In other words, if the LDS Church commences disciplinary proceedings, its right to continue those proceedings, and its right to enjoy the constitutional protections associated described above, then the individual cannot short circuit those proceedings by resigning.
“Within the concept of protected implementation are not only the religious disciplinary proceeding’s merits and procedure but also its end product — the expulsion sanction.”
-In other words, the Church has the right to get to the “end product” of a disciplinary proceeding, and to do so without surrendering its constitutional protections.
“While excommunication would put an end to jurisdiction over any further offense, it does not abrogate the consequences flowing from the previously announced Church judicature.”
-Well said, OK Supreme Court, well said.
“Parishioners admit that at no time during or after the proceedings at issue did they withdraw their Church membership. Thus the Church retained full subject matter and personal jurisdiction to adjudicate the two disciplinary cases against the parishioners. Upon excommunication, and while a parishioner remains under the church discipline, the ecclesiastical tribunal impliedly relinquishes the power of judicature over the parishioner for any other or future conduct, yet retains cognizance over the previously adjudicated matter for the purpose of implementing any extent ecclesiastical sanction.”
-I wish I could write like this. The Court then shifts gears a bit:
“Sovereign only within her own domain, the church has no power over those who live outside of the spiritual community. The church may not be forced to tolerate as a member one whom it feels obliged to expel from its flock. On the other hand, no citizen of the state may be compelled to remain in a church which his conscience impels him to leave.”
-I quite agree with this reasoning.
“The Free Exercise Clause prohibits civil courts from inquiring into any phase of ecclesiastical decisionmaking — its merits as well as procedure.”
-This is generally referred to as the “Ecclesiastical Abstention” doctrine.
“In sum, if a matter lies within ecclesiastical cognizance, the church stands protected from any interference by the Free Exercise Clause. If it oversteps proper bounds, it will run afoul of the Establishment Clause insofar as its use of the state power may be in furtherance of a religious cause. As stated in Prince v. Commonwealth, ‘… religious activities which concern only members of the faith are and ought to be free — as nearly absolutely free as anything can be.'”
-Just so.
“At the point when the church-member relationship is severed through an affirmative act either of a parishioner’s withdrawal or of excommunication by the ecclesiastical body, a different situation arises. In the event of withdrawal or of post-excommunication activity unrelated to the church’s efforts at effectuation of valid judicature, the absolute privilege from tort liability no longer attaches.”
-Pretty clear, I think.
“Any action at this point, if it is to be protected, must be justified by others means. Under these circumstances conditional privileges may be applicable. The church may take such steps as are reasonable to protect itself and to complete the process occasioned by the withdrawal or other termination of the consensual relationship with a member.”
-‘Nuff said. Hadnot rather clearly establishes what would happen if Guinn is applied in an LDS context. That is, the Church and its SOP for disciplinary proceedings would be in safe waters.
Thanks,
-Spencer
I’m with you up to the recommendation to “Submit your resignation before being dismissed.”
For those of us who actually still believe (like GoodWill2), this is likely not an option.
For folks that actually still believe the calculus becomes, do you force the Stake Pres and High Council to condemn themselves by rendering a judgment? Or do you condemn yourself by denying your beliefs.
I’ve not yet been placed in that position, but if/when I am, I don’t know what course I’d/I’ll choose.
I see the temptation to throw myself on the grenade and resign to spare them the condemnation.
Yet I expect I will do as the Master, and only confirm that their accusations are, in fact what they are claiming, and then force them to render judgment but forgive them for not knowing what they are doing.
While I detest the TBM’s that say unbelievers should just leave the Church™ alone, I’d like to think that, if I didn’t actually believe any longer (like Jeremy appears to), I wouldn’t waste my time showing up. The way you excise some one/thing from your life is to forget about it, and ignore it in the future. At least 2/3 of the “claimed” members of the Church™ have already done this.
But I do see the other side. Why leave the Church™ alone, when they certainly aren’t leaving you (and likely your family/friends) alone. And why not try to use that same zeal for sharing truth that you had when you believed in the Church™ with those you now honestly believe are being mislead.
I’m not sure how it shakes out in the end, but I think the best advise for anyone is to only spend your time on things that you value.