[toc]A remarkable video from an LDS missionary Zone Conference in France was recently circulated on the internet. It depicted Mission President Allan Pratt chastising a group of missionaries at a Zone Conference over this issue of masturbation. See the video and transcript here.
The specter of a late middle aged man lecturing a group of men barely out of puberty on the evils of masturbation may seem odd to people outside of Mormonism and other orthodox groups, but it is a common LDS occurrence. In this video, Dr. Pratt explains to the missionaries certain facts about masturbation:
- Masturbation is a problem in their mission which has contributed to the fact that only 2 baptisms have been achieved per month.
- Smart, wise missionaries confess masturbation to the mission president – leaving the implication that those who do not are dumb and foolish.
- Missionaries cannot overcome the tendency to masturbate by themselves, but are able to with the help of the mission president.
- Masturbation will prevent them from getting blessings
- The Spirit of the Lord immediately leaves when they masturbate
- Using any internet email other than the church monitored site places them at risk for pornography and masturbation.
What I am going to say on this subject will take some explaining and is a bit complex so I will summarize it and you can choose to dive into details if you are curious.
See below for a more detailed explanation.
Tale as old as time
Based on numerous conversations I have had with former church members, I would say this pattern is one which is not uncommon among men in the church:
- A young man hits puberty and starts to have the normal sexual developmental experiences of sexual thoughts and physical changes. Masturbation is a common part of this pubertal experience
- The young man learns from church leaders that masturbation is wrong, immoral, dirty and a violation of the law of Chastity.
- The young man struggles to stop this activity, but can’t seem to make it go away completely. He has periods of great success in diverting his mind and energies, but always seems to return to fall into the same behavior which he now knows deprives him of God’s Spirit and good standing. After each failure he has a powerful sense of shame and guilt and need for repentance.
- His inability to stop masturbating completely makes him feel worthless and weak. The cycles of guilt and repentance continue, even through his mission, which he may or may not have had to lie about his masturbation in order to go on.
- He eventually gets married and feels sure that his access to sexual expression with his spouse will put a stop to his lapses. He soon discovers that even though his masturbation has decreased in frequency, he still periodically descends into that pit of failure and is unable to stop completely.
- His activity may be discovered by his spouse at some point and she may demand that he go to priesthood leadership to fix his problem. In some cases the man may choose to go on his own after feeling powerless to rid himself of the act.
- He is counseled to increase his devotion and energies in scripture study, prayer, fasting and wholesome activities as well as reducing or eliminating personal private time in an effort to overcome his sin. Each relapse is a reminder of his personal weakness and failure.
- The man continues to do these remediation activities for years as he struggles to overcome his weakness. While he finds periodic success, he still falls into old patterns of behavior on occasion. After several years pass in this cycle, he is soon able to abstain for much longer periods of time. after a few decades he is able to cut it out of his life completely!
- His success in overcoming that sin is proof of the efficacy of the religious devotion that he has shown, the strength of his personal character and the power of the Gospel to cleanse men’s lives!
- By this time the man is no longer a young man, but an older man who now has position and authority in the church and in his family. His success at overcoming this sin through the prescribed method gives him personal experience to justify the strong language that he is now in a position to use when warning the new youth against this sin.
The experience of the man described above seems to make sense. After being unable to overcome the sin on his own, his time spent in the repentance process under the guidance of priesthood leadership and focused on religious and wholesome activities, drawing upon the power of heaven ultimately helped him overcome Satan’s hold on him. But is there another possible explanation?
Biological Factors affecting sexual desire
Libido, or to use the vernacular “Sex Drive”, is a term to describe a persons overall desire for sexual activity. It is affected by biological, psychological and social factors. It should be no surprise to discover that the spike in sexual interest that accompanies puberty is heavily mediated by increasing levels of certain hormones. In males one of the strongest factors driving sexual desire is testosterone. It is not the only factor and other hormones and psychological factors play a role – but it is a primary driver of libido at puberty and through out the remainder of a man’s life.
This is reinforced by the fact that men who take androgen receptor inhibitor medications which block the effects of testosterone-like hormones experience a marked decrease in libido. Additionally testosterone supplement therapy is effective in helping men who have impaired or absent sex drives develop increased levels of sexual interest (see review article on “Hormonal Correlates of Sexual Desire” from the Canadian Journal of Human Sexuality, pg 4-5).
If you were to plot a graph of normal blood serum Testosterone (T) levels throughout a mans life, you would see a graph like this:
Male serum testosterone levels by age (adapted from Neishlag & Beir “Testosterone: Action, Deficiency, Substitution” Page 273 Amazon.com)
Graphing Sex Desire by Age
Now because Testosterone is a primary driver of libido, we can use the testosterone graph to map out generalized baseline sexual desire throughout a mans life. A graph of this would look like this:
Sexual Desire by Age – see section below for explanation
Okay – this looks like a complicated graph and there are some things that need to be explained:
- Main curve: The main curve in this graph is a plot of generalized sexual desire over a mans life. It is extrapolated from average blood serum testosterone levels. At a given age, you can see the average testosterone level for normal males and this is relatively proportional to the level of sexual desire or libido found in that age group. You can see that it is very low during early childhood, spikes during puberty and stays a peak plateau until the 30’s where after it shows a gradual decline. No units are employed in this plot because it is not meant to show absolute values but rather relative difference between men at different ages as is explained below.
- Line A: This is a threshold line dividing the pre-pubertal male child with very low T levels and very low sexual desire. To the left of this line there is generally little to no expression of sexual desire. To the right of this line there is the steepest portion of the surge in sexual interest that accompanies puberty leading into the plateau phase of early adulthood.
- Line B: This is the threshold at which male T levels start to decline after a plateau at the peak levels. After this threshold T levels gradually decrease in steady procession and there is an attendant gradual general decrease in libido. With each passing year comes slightly less interest in sexual activity overall. Note that it does not disappear completely and certainly never goes to the low levels of childhood. This explains why “business still goes down” in retirement communities of elderly men and women.
- Line C: This is the Isolated Masturbatory Threshold (IMT). It is the threshold at which sexual desire, mediated by T and other hormonal, psychological and social factors, is so high that masturbation becomes a near ubiquitous sexual outlet among males. It is designated Isolated because this is the threshold for males with no other avenue of sexual expression.
- Line D: This is the Coupled Masturbatory Threshold (CMT). Like the IMT, it is a threshold at which masturbation is a common outlet of sexual desire. The CMT is higher than the IMT, however, because this is the threshold for men who are in a Coupled relationship which allows them sexual expression other than masturbation (i.e. sex with their spouse). Since these men have regular sex with their spouse, they will find it easier to abstain from masturbation for a given level of sexual desire. If their libido is higher than that which may be limited by their spouses libido, there is still pressure which may lead them to masturbate. If sex with their spouse is sufficient to resolve their sexual desire, then there is no pressure leading to masturbation.
- Yellow Lines: The yellow lines represent what I will call the Gap of Onan – it is the difference between the level of sexual desire and the masturbatory threshold – IMT for single men and the CMT for men with sexual partners. The wider the gap in the positive direction (sexual desire higher than the Masturbatory threshold) – the stronger the pressure placed on the individual which may lead to masturbation.
Mis-attributed Victory over Self Abuse?
There are some key observations to be made from this graph when considering the older MP or Bishop/Stake President who is lecturing young men on masturbation. Is it not possible that their own success in overcoming masturbation is actually the result of waning libido due to decreased testosterone and other factors determining sexual desire rather than their cycles of repentance? Regardless of whether or not they engage in those religious activities – their libido is gradually decreasing as an inevitable result of normal human aging. Once they cross the CMT, they may attribute their victory over self abuse to scripture study, prayer and meeting attendance – but it could also be explained though normal aging process.
The Gap of Onan
The disparity of a 55 year old man towards the end of his middle-age years berating a room full of 19-21 year old young men about masturbation is brought into a sharp focus when you compare the large Gap of Onan where Missionaries are at age 18-21 with the small or negative Gap of Onan where the Mission President is at age 55. At the age of missionaries they are at the period of their life where the Gap of Onan is highest and so there is the strongest pressure to masturbate. At the Mission Presidents age, the Gap of Onan is dramatically lower – possibly even negative where there is absolutely no pressure to masturbate.
Daily Fluctuations
If you look at the daily fluctuations of testosterone in young men compared to older men you see that for any given time of day, the young man is bathed in significantly higher levels of this libido fueling hormone.
Young men have higher levels of T throughout the day. (courtesy WebMD)
This adds further evidence that Missionaries and other youth are under much greater stress than the men who believe they have overcome the same trials as their young charges. It’s not that they have overcome the sexual desires – it is that the libido has dropped to manageable levels due to the natural process of aging.
A Stress Test
What is a test that would make the point demonstrated here? If you were to take a man who had fallen below the CMT line in his sexual desire due to age and removed his spouse due to divorce or death, then the man would be placed back into the population dealing with the IMT. As such the pressure to masturbate would increase, and the chances that he falls back into the old patterns of behavior increase because the additional sexual outlet of his spouse is no longer available to him. His Gap of Onan would be calculated in comparison to the IMT rather than the CMT and would thereby increase significantly. Would it surprise you if a newly divorced or widowed man had a higher likelihood of engaging in self-abuse – even if he had previously stopped that activity?
The “sexual desire by age” chart above simply presents the reality of the human male experience in a visible schematic fashion. In doing so it accounts for stress tests like this as well as the differences between older men and missionaries in the challenges in overcoming masturbation.
Conclusion
This cycle of mis-attributed victory of self-abuse means that older men in the LDS church will continue to believe that it is their own spiritual strength of character and ability to draw upon the powers of heaven which has allowed them to overcome masturbation when it is predominantly due to the normal waning of hormonal drivers of male sexual desire. Because of this mistaken confidence in their own piety, they will not hesitate to preach boldly to young men about the evil of their actions and the possibility of complete abstinence from this sin. In so doing, each new generation will be shackled with the same guilt, shame, self-abasement and self-hatred that affected the prior.
This cycle is good for the church because it keeps members constantly feeling like they are broken and must turn to the church to be made whole. The remedy prescribed by the church is sure to keep those struggling members bound to it. When the victory over sin is mistakenly attributed to the Church, the man will feel even greater trust in and dependance on the church – being bound even closer than before.
The young men who are unable to lie about their activities will be the target of greater shaming and discipline by church leaders. When told to abstain from taking the sacrament, the public will know that they have sinned – adding to their shame. They may be prevented from going on a mission and then have to deal with intense negative social consequences. For some young men the pressures are so great and their disappointment in themselves for not being able to control such strong sexual desires may lead to suicide. For others, they will learn to lie to leaders and keep their shame and guilt as a personal poison in their hearts – effecting their self worth and confidence in all other aspects of their lives.
PostScript
It is intriguing to see other conversations around this topic. Here are some places on the web where this article is being discussed.
Post Script 2
On “Onan” – I am aware that the sin of Onan wasn’t masturbation per se – but his story has been associated with masturbation by longstanding jewish tradition to the extent that the term “onanism” has been a euphemism for masturbation
And so the justification of masturbation continues. You should re-title this article, “VOMIT! Have some, it’s delicious.” I’m curious when the old, sexually dilapidated men who have overcome masturbation through whatever means be it faithfulness or biology, what makes the difference between them and people who are there same age who have surrendered their morals and spend all their strength in pornography, sex, and masturbation? I do not want to learn from such a person who have done this to themselves. However you frame the discussion, the mere fact that they HAVE overcome masturbation is a triumph no matter how small. You should NOT promote the idea that we should surrender to our animal instincts and biology, that we should let our bodies conquer US on any battlefield. It goes against everything we’ve been taught. Taught not just through religion, but with the experience of generations. You can try to manufacture your own personal spin, but it lacks the credibility of being put into practice, seeing a life we can observe that has produced the solid picture of a man we desire to become like. You have nothing here but an elaborate excuse to continue pumping your…ugh so disgusting. Are you so past feeling that you would say anything to continue to stoke the fires of masturbation? How many great men have stood up and said, “I am the man today because I masturbate!” You would find more men in prison that would stand up I suspect. If you consider them great, then I guess you have your role models. This is a BARF of an article and I think you should spend your time elsewhere in your life. There are people who actually need help, real help. This is the result of someone comfortable on their couch who never dirties his hands except with semen, how wretchedly vile.
There is something seriously wrong with you, Amadeus, to bring on this level of base disgust with the author’s conclusions.
And, the stastistics provided are not incorrect.
There’s something to be said for recognizing the balance of spirituality and physicality necessary to every person.
Get a blog. Comments are directed towards the Tinker of Thoughts, how oddly appropriate. Comments directed at commenters that exist on a blog are a distraction, a waste of time and bloat the conversation.
Comments are generally freeform. The comment system has a “reply” function so people can interact with and comment on one another. Comments directed at other commenters are an essential part of the conversation.
And if those comments by a commenter dismiss comments from anyone but the person he or she chooses to comment to, that is also a form of commenting. You will have to pick the points up from your commenters if you want them addressed by myself and then, only if I choose to and I expect you will only listen to my comments, if you choose to. Fair?
I encourage you to make your comments insightful and intelligent.
I encourage you to not masturbate or endorse it’s practice. That is my intelligent point of view and I offer it without proof you can examine other than in your own life. This is testimonial proof based on *my* experience, those around me and those I find worthy of emulation, which is real to me. It’s certainly real to the leaders of the church, which are and have been fathers and have been blessed with the experience and counsel from their own parents, children and spouses not to mention that being counselors in the church, they have a very unique perspective across families they are responsible for, and this is the counsel that that perspective has produced.
The internet is by it’s very nature, anonymous, so your not going to glean a very credible example based on personal experience here anyway, but you cannot deny the value that is gleaned from experience to the person who has gleaned it. You could dismiss my point of view completely, wash it out, claim whatever you like but the one point your article does not address is the claims that I am making.
What is the consequence when we arrive at your conclusion, dismiss the claims of anyone claiming mastery of themselves through spiritual strength and instead pursue a life that sets aside such counsel, that yields to masturbation as an outlet of sexual tension, and holds the perspective that no person on earth can or should play a part in our spiritual healing or as the direction this current thread is going, that you shouldn’t learn from your elders and take no one’s word for anything, and be compelled to find out all things for yourself — and you’re free to do this, so my saying anything shouldn’t dissuade you. Maybe you will claim I am reading too deeply, but you haven’t set the boundaries, you’ve kicked at the issues but you leave the reader to spiral out of control with his conclusions.
If you need a study of the pro’s and con’s of masturbation that supports my view to add credibility to what I am saying, I will have to plea as the idiot that will “beat you to death with experience”. It is my promise to you that you WILL find that masturbation is not a tool to happier living and I don’t need to have the kudos on a blog for saying it. I’ll happily accept the mockery from fellow bloggers who’ll say whatever they will invent to discredit me. If what I am saying is true, it will be self-evident to people who do as I recommend and it will be less apparent to people who don’t, because they will have other problems that may mask their awareness.
As for insightful, what I am saying is plain as word can be. I don’t know if that is insightful. I don’t know if I can give a new spin on some really old information.
You posted an article on the suicide of someone who committed suicide to me a little bit ago. If you can get past the messiness of the issues at work, I think another perspective you could take, apart from your own which is certainly popular in present company, is that of Luke 6:46-49.(https://www.lds.org/scriptures/nt/luke/6.46-49?lang=eng), and it’s clearly apparent that great was the ruin of his life. It may not be a perspective that stands uncontested, but it is certainly one of many possible insights.
The scripture you allude to in Luke is as follows:
“And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say? Whosoever cometh to me, and heareth my sayings, and doeth them, I will shew you to whom he is like:
He is like a man which built an house, and digged deep, and laid the foundation on a rock: and when the flood arose, the stream beat vehemently upon that house, and could not shake it: for it was founded upon a rock. But he that heareth, and doeth not, is like a man that without a foundation built an house upon the earth; against which the stream did beat vehemently, and immediately it fell; and the ruin of that house was great.”
Now people believing that Christ came to give a whole new series of legalistic commandments might see this as strong advice to look through and find out where Christ specifically said “thou shalt not chokest thine chicken.” (he didn’t)
Other Christians believe that the sayings which Christ was referring to here are those which admonished men to believe in him and through that faith become a new person whose heart is centered in love – whose works of love will then be plainly manifest in their lives.
That is the real message of Christ for many, many Christians. To them, taking the position that you seem to adopt is simply appropriating Christ’s words to justify obedience to men who claim authority for which they have none. I concede that you would not agree with this characterization.
A whole new series of legalistic commandments? No, but to say he gave no commandments would be a mischaracterization of his message. He was saying basically, “Look, stop trying to get around the gospel by using the wording of the scriptures, manipulating them through diverse interpretations to justify yourselves and instead, use them to become acquainted with God, and he will direct your paths.” He clarified the scriptures that existed, expounded on their intent, taught his disciples about the laws that governed the principles so they would not need to be commanded in all things.
If not masturbating has made you, Amadeus, the prick that you are…
I find that all the more reason to rub one out.
That may be asking too much…
If recent scandals are any indication, often it’s the people who rant and rave the loudest who are the very people engaging in the behaviors they rant against. Methinks thou doth protest too much. Using a pseudonym was a good idea, though.
Ad Hominem attack mixed with a bit of sour grapes.
Sour grapes implies that Monica is insulting something that she actually really wants in order to make herself feel better though she cannot have it…
…. I am not seeing that in her comment.
Subtext here is because other readers should associate poster Amadeus with “recent scandals” and “people who rant and rave the loudest who are the very people engaging in the behaviors they rant against” the dialogue Amadeus is pursuing doesn’t merit the subsequent readers’ attention, because what he had to say wasn’t worth listening to anyway. The Sour grapes are mingled with this and wanting to engage in a conversation that I refused to seriously pursue with anyone but the blogger, which she could not have. Oh, and welcome to this bloated tangent to the article.
I am not sure, from this 3rd person comment, if you are aware that I am the blogger.
You received an articulated response, not a one-liner. Hence, I do understand who you are.
Umm, I guess I need to ask this, because I’m not sure it has been established…
Amadeus, are you male? Do you have a libido? Do you find women (or men) attractive? Have you ever experienced shaming related to sexuality? Why are the sexual actions of others so important to you?
Sp… I mean Amadeus – I recommend you look at this overview of the evolving teaching of Masturbation in the church:
http://www.mormonstudies.net/pdf/mormon_masturbation.pdf
Try and give me the cliff notes. Let’s not bury this conversation like lawyers who “bury the important facts in a boring mass of trivial details”. I got 20 seconds, what can you say to make masturbation a good thing?
The point is not to make the case that Masturbation is a good thing, but rather to point out that the teaching of masturbation abstinence tied to messages of iniquity, weakness, failure and divine disproval create significant psychological stressors that have negative effects in the lives of those who are raised in such a system.
One thing that the article points out is that at one point in history it was believed that masturbation led to insanity and there were people admitted to asylums for that reason. Further research demonstrated that it was not masturbation itself which led to the psychological damage of those patients but the fact that they were raised in a system that taught masturbation abstinence. People who were not raised in a cloud of such teachings did not have the harmful psychological damage.
There is no man that will stand up and say “masturbation is what made me the man I am today!” but there are also almost no men who have lived a life without masturbating. The question is how you deal with this ubiquitous fact in a way that promotes mental health and normal sexual development. Demonizing it only creates psychological damage.
It is akin to the way that many mormons feel about Catholic priests. I have heard many express the opinion that the celibacy that is demanded of them can only lead to bad outcomes. This is the same principle, but applied to everyone.
That article really is worth reading. I wouldn’t cliff note it. If you really want to get to the bottom of an issue, then it takes some digging.
I wish to respond to this point…
There is no man that will stand up and say “masturbation is what made me the man I am today!” but there are also almost no men who have lived a life without masturbating.
There is not a real way for me to know the truth of this statistic, but I’ll accept it at face value for the moment, since it is very probable from my point of view.
How does the fact that people have masturbated say anything about what the correct counsel and practice should be? A better question from my perspective is, “Of those who have succeeded in a closer relationship with their creator, how many of those masturbate and continue to do so?” I think your set is overly inclusive. I happen to agree that the church’s counsel is destructive when one clings to one more than the other and I think the scriptures support this in Matthew 6:24 (https://www.lds.org/scriptures/nt/matt/6.24).
Well, there is one way to find out. Based on several of your comments you seem to place great value on aspiring to be like the model men that you encounter in your personal life and see in church leadership. Why don’t you candidly ask a few of them what their experience with masturbation is? Whether it was something that they overcame in their youth or struggled with over their adulthood.
Of source this would be too personal of a question and you would not likely get honest answers.
Imagine this possibility though – what if every one of them said that it is an ongoing effort for them to remain pure and has been throughout their entire life. They now go for much longer periods between falling to that weakness, but it has not been entirely purged as they had hoped.
Then compare it to asking a bunch of well respected and good men outside of the church that same question. Most of them would likely say that it was something they did more frequently in past, but don’t feel the need to do as frequently now.
Both of these groups would be good men that are not morally depraved or bad people. Both would be groups of men who have healthy respectful relationships with the women in their lives. Both masturbated more frequently in the past and less frequently now. The only difference is that the men raised in a cloud of demonization of the practice have been racked with guilt, shame, and self-doubt about this issue their whole life, while the men outside of that tradition haven’t really given it much place in their minds.
Given statistics on the prevalence of masturbation, this scenario is far more likely than the chance that you ask all those men that you respect in the church about the issue and they all say that they struggled with it a bit in their youth and never had a problem since missionary age or marriage, and would never succumb to temptation in the future if they lost their regular sexual outlet.
I have no right to ask that type of question of anyone. That type of question is private and none of my business. I CAN take their counsel and see if it helps. It’s a puzzle though how someone could respectably share their experience since it is both private and personal.
Your points here might be…
A. All men masturbate, they always have and always will, the antithesis of 7-up and caffeine (curse you 7-up GOLD!!!!). If so, you could claim Jesus masturbated, if not, you could still claim most men masturbate.
B. If they aren’t masturbating, they *will* once they don’t have a sexual outlet or until they succumb to the vicissitudes of time and biology. Implying perhaps there are no old guys masturbating or masturbating so infrequently it’s negligible. (I can think of a couple of examples that make this claim problematic, so I am doubtful this is a correct summary of your perspective.)
C. People who masturbate are not morally depraved. One might infer that masturbation should be classified as a virtuous practice or somehow stands apart as neither a virtue or a vice but an essential biological outlet such as breathing or excreting bodily fluids (ooh yea, that sounds persuasive! Sounds all sciencey!)
D. Masturbators are not bad people, i.e. so masturbators are possibly synonymous with people who pure in heart. This is important to my view since in the scriptural perspective I follow, it is god’s view that only the pure in heart shall see god, so by your claim, it is possible for someone who actively masturbates to be pure in heart.
E. The sole reason people are racked with guilt is because of demonization, perhaps implying that there is no personal or ecclesiastical spiritual indication one way or the other.
F. You refute the claim that it is possible to not masturbate (perhaps this shares a table with having a sexual outlet) and that statistically speaking it’s more probable that anyone who says “Don’t masturbate” is living a lie, and ignores the circumstances of those without sexual opportunities and it is the imposition of that teaching on others that has created a tragic circumstance. Also possibly implying that anyone who says they are not masturbating is lying or speaking from a temporary and untenable position and will return to the practice of masturbating or some other sexual outlet, opportunity and biology permitting.
This is neither helpful information or a convincing argument for *me* especially in terms of spiritual progression, I know differently, but that’s my point of view and I can respect your cynicism about my perspective, but there you have it. I’m not going to go into a blow-by-blow take down of your perspective, the conclusion is inescapable and however you deflect the argument, you’re still pro-masturbation and I am against that perspective. You keep inserting demonizing as the true villain, not masturbation per se, but it’s a wash. You’re playing with words. You’ll have your fans, but I am not one of them.
This is a very good summary of different perspectives on the issue. Much more thoughtful than the “vomit” comment you started with. Thanks for sharin
Sure thing, anytime you want to hold a conversation that is as appealing as vomit, someone’s sure to tell you, “That is disgusting!”
I am happy to say that I am who I am because I masturbate. The minute I realized that God doesn’t give a fig about whether I do or don’t, I saw how normal healthy men treat it as nothing much… like the extension of grooming habits, shaving, blowing one’s nose, combing one’s hair. Masturbation makes it possible to free my mind for other, more worthwhile things. I don’t have to be obsessed about masturbation, fill in a daily chart, sing a hymn, fast for strength… etc. All that concentration, all that energy gets funneled into my work. I have no need for the angst, the guilt, and other ways the church sees to manipulate people. Once I grew up, saw that masturbation was just one more way the church was able to motivate me, to own me, I saw through the scheme… and I didn’t care. I am a healthy male with healthy appetites, and I control them through masturbation.
I was nervous before my big job interview, I rubbed one out in the rest room before the meeting, and I was calm, focussed and confident. I got the job. I am here today, because I masturbate.
You remind me of a Skeksis. I view someone like this as a twisted fragment of a being that could be so much greater. Listening to you is draining my essence so I’m going to go scrape the Klingon’s off the Starboard bow, since I can’t persuade all the laboratory animals to attack you. You’re not on my bucket list of people to emulate so, in the words of the Stinker of thoughts, “Thanks for sharin’!”
This is an excellent example of how the teachings of the church place a filter on the minds of those people whom it indoctrinates.
The church tells you that people who violate the sanctity of the “little factory” are depraved, spirit deficient, hollow shells who have regressed to their carnal instincts.
A person tells you he doesn’t make a big deal about it and has a healthy and full life – then the indoctrinated member cannot accept that. It contradicts what the church told him must be. As a result, he must project the image that the church paints onto the person who is honestly describing their life free from the controlling narrative of the church.
One of the main reasons the problem of masturbation in the church is a male one is because the church instructs the women on how they chould feel when they discover that their husband is a filthy ‘bater. They are told that their husband is then violating their sacred powers and hurting the tender love and purity of the wife and their marriage. With this instruction in mind, both the wife and the husband are primed.
The husband still succumbs to the temptation (due to the pressures I outlined in the article) and when discovered, the wife knows exactly how to react – the church told her that her husband ‘batin is a degradation of their special sacred marriage vows and an affront to her pure spirit and so she acts accordingly. She is hurt, she can’t understand why her husband would do this. She runs to her father or the bishop and in a broken down state is devastated by the carnal base depravity of her husband. Her husband also has bought into the narrative and feels infintely magnified shame and guilt for his behavior.
see this example of a journal account recently posted on reddit: http://www.reddit.com/r/exmormon/comments/2d9tci/the_church_is_not_harmless_a_letter_from_my/
Don’t believe this?
Okay. If you are a man, sondier how you would feel if you discovered that your wife masturbated. Would you feel like she was destroying your marriage? would you feel that she was rejecting your special spirit?
Likely not. This is because that message has never been targeted to be programmed into the male perspective by the church. Only targeted to the female perspective.
I suspect that you would find almost all, normal, healthy young women masturbate to some degree – particularly if they are married to a man who doesn’t make nor help them orgasm. I can’t fathom how a woman orgasming on her own due to an unskilled or selfish spouse would lead to rampant mayhem and ultimate ruin. It’s almost ironic that any man would dare say such a thing.
I keep going back and forth on wether or not to leave you in peace to wallow in your semen salted lifestyle or try and provoke you to realize how reckless you’re being. It’s soooo hard to take you seriously. My ears are still ringing from all the facedesk action I’m getting here. What you want is for all mankind is to masturbate guilt free?! How utterly carnal, selfish and revolting. That picture on the article with the zipper, hand and the book of mormon is an image I want to wash from my memory forever. So much is wrong with those ideas all in the same frame. Masturbation is wrong! WRONG! WROOOONG!!! It’s SO wrong you have to bend over backwards and inside out to even talk about it as if it’s a practice our heavenly father desires of his children. It’s certainly natural, but the natural man is an enemy to god. The word itself curdles my blood. You imagine that your creator is sneaking off to the bushes to whack the weasel?
Aw !@#$ NO!
If a healthy full life REQUIRES masturbation, Jesus or Jehovah would have broached the topic somewhere in the old or new testament. WOW! I’m still picking up the pieces of my blown mind off the wall, floor and ceiling. The sex urge does NOT have to be satisfied. Keep your pants on! Keep a lid on your urges. Have some self-mastery. Learn to keep your !@#$ hands out of your pants. BE A MAN, not this sweaty, grubby meat sack of a person with shoddy morals. STOP making it impossible with impure thoughts and START by filling your mind with only what is virtuous.
The Church has it right, or close enough, closer than where you’re aiming which is so off the deep end and I can’t see the bottom. They are not controlling you, they don’t enter your home and knock on your bathroom door and peep in your emails or call the cable company to see what sites you’re visiting. God knows what you’re doing and that’s all that really matters. You can tell the church whatever you like. You’ll only get the help you ask for. You can boldface lie to the bishop and he will sign up a recommend just because you want one, but god will not be mocked so you do this at your own peril. I can’t say this enough, “They don’t control you!” I’ve never, ever, EVER been controlled by a bishop. Heck, I don’t even see him except on Sundays or at campouts. He’s got his own family, work just like everybody else. The gospel doctrine isn’t anymore controlling than when you open a user manual and the vendor tells you, “Be careful of electric shock”, “Here are some guidelines to use this product…”, or the little the silica gel packets marked “Throw Away, DO NOT EAT!” There are laws that govern the universe and there are laws that our creator has established, he has declared them and he cannot or will not take them away. You can pull a pharisee and say, “Well he never said don’t masturbate!”, but what does your heart tell you? When you pray to your heavenly father when do you feel closer to him, when you’ve done another form of self-control such as fasting or when you glut yourself on food, sex and television? Our ability to procreate isn’t a toy or self-enabled pleasure past-time. We need to be men and women of the strongest character, respectful, virtuous and holy, worthy of the spirit at all times. How else can we be prepared in the hour of our trial or when life is at it’s worse? Have you ever considered 1 Corinthians 7:4 “4 The wife hath not power of her own body, but the husband: and likewise also the husband hath not power of his own body, but the wife.”?
If you keep smoking what you’re shoveling, this stuff is loaded with garbage that can lead to lasting spiritual damage and addiction.
Mosiah 3:19
“19 For the natural man is an enemy to God, and has been from the fall of Adam, and will be, forever and ever, unless he yields to the enticings of the Holy Spirit, and putteth off the natural man and becometh a saint through the atonement of Christ the Lord, and becometh as a child, submissive, meek, humble, patient, full of love, willing to submit to all things which the Lord seeth fit to inflict upon him, even as a child doth submit to his father.”
Trust me or learn by experience, masturbation will ruin you by degrees and will definitely not bring you closer to God.
Signed,
Captain Obvious
The wife of Thinker of Thoughts here:
So much anger. I feel very sorry for you, Amadeus. Sexual fulfillment is not one and the same with procreation. Read anon 2’s comment below for a demonstration of this. The female sexual response is not tied to fertility, and her orgasm does not come about by vaginal-penile sex (which is necessary for procreation). In fact, the female orgasm is proof that God wanted us to find sexual pleasure separate from procreation.
I enjoyed this blog post because it was clinical, factual, cool-headed, and logical. The only disgusting things I’ve read with it are your own comments, Amadeus. The imagery that you hold in your mind and are typing out for all the world to see is demonstrative of the very issues Thinker of Thoughts alluded to in the original blog post. You seem to have a very negative view of human biology. And, you have an extremely negative view of anyone with which you seem to disagree down to calling them “a sweaty, grubby meatsack of a person with shoddy morals.” Perhaps it would be best for you not to read things with which you disagree since your reaction is so violent.
I think I might actually see if my husband, Thinker of Thoughts, would let me do a guest blog post on the subject of female sexuality and orgasm. When we examine the reality with female biology a lot of issues with male biology become apparent. Although, I don’t know if there will be any really cool charts involved. So, Thinker, what do you say, Honey? 🙂
You are always welcome to share your perspective. I may even be able to whip up some charts. 😛
First of all…eww! This conversation is so Umbrella Corporation. Just because you dress an argument in smooth and dispassionate language doesn’t add to it’s truthfulness one whit.
I have an extremely negative view of the practice of masturbation and I won’t hide my distaste of it behind platitudes. I don’t want to mince words so you will be exceedingly clear where I stand on this issue. I want there to be NO QUESTION about what my views are regarding masturbation, so clear in fact that I will endure the occasional poke and jab from whoever takes the opportunity to criticize my methods. Go ahead, disagree with my approach, it is clear from reading other posters to your blog that clear and level headed thinking makes no headway either, but do not mistake my message.
Stinky has pursued the clever approach, even the great deceiver can sound nigh unto an angel of light distilling his arguments through cold manufactured reasoning minus the experience rendered through years of reflection. His conclusions are a departure so far and apart from the counsel anyone I have ever respected has ever shared in or out of the church. People like backwards smurf-war are just examples of people who, for the moment, justify themselves and has an attitude that is in open rebellion against anyone who would deny access to masturbation. This is hopefully temporary, since there are always some things we are faced with that take time to process. As far as I am concerned, I’m going to call a spade a spade. Masturbation is not a something where you can declare, “What’s in a name? that which we call a rose by any other name would smell as sweet!” It is an entirely base act. There is no middle ground. There is no other person there, this act will not draw you together with your companion, there is no sacrifice, there is no love because you cannot express yourself to anyone but yourself. This is the complete opposite of being selfless which is the attitude the savior embraces. This is the opposite of self-restraint. This is the opposite to having an eye single to God. This act does not fill you with light.
Will you stop at masturbation? Will you proceed to the next rung in the ladder of depravity and embrace any activity that yields sexual release? Will you have a clever and polished chart, children story or scientific study that says anything you want that will be supported by the spirit? It’s interesting to see that there exists one yoke you are unable to bear, and that is to “not masturbate” and yet will you agree that with the lord all things are possible (Matthew 19:26). So who is *your* lord and master? Philippians 4:13 Paul states “13 I can do all things through Christ which strengtheneth me.”
Do not engage in that behavior and you will be better for it.
Something that will be included in my guest blog post: Every time a man climaxes during sexual intercourse with a woman and considers the act complete without the woman having climaxed as well he is essentially just using the woman as a masturbatory tool. In other words, if a man does not know how to help his female partner orgasm and/or does not “allow” her to orgasm during their lovemaking he is just masturbating with a woman/using her. So, Amadeus, are you able to bring your female partner to orgasm? Or are you simply masturbating and using her as a tool to do so?
Ask God the same question, I’ld be curious how your question would be received. I would advise you not to ask that question and spend the rest of your life repenting of even forming the idea. When you meet him you will unfold yourself all the thoughts, words and deeds of your life and would wish that you could hide your arrogance from him because those words you use now will be among them.
God DOES judge you based on the thoughts and intent of your heart, you don’t even have to go through the motions to commit the sin of asking that of me or him. Do not ask me a question you would not ask your mother and father temporally or spiritually. Honor your father and mother, especially your Heavenly parents who should hold an exclusive preeminence in your life. This question you ask does not honor them, it is not sacred or even deserving a response other than wrath. It resembles the type of reverence I would expect of the defiler. How does this question show you to be a disciple of Christ? Can you even imagine the savior saying this to his Heavenly father, his earthly mother or his Heavenly Mother? Which way does this attitude that holds nothing sacred render you: more the child of our heavenly father or the child of hell? If you think it, in God’s eyes you have done it. Is this even a christian blog anymore? I don’t think Stinky even quoted one scripture.
Based on your other response, I think its safe to say, “Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter! Woe unto them that are wise in their own eyes, and prudent in their own sight!,… Which Justify the wicked for reward, and take away the righteousness of the righteous from him! Therefore as the fire devoureth the stubble, and the flame consumeth the chaff, so their root shall be as rottenness, and their blossom shall go up as dust: because they have cast away the law of the Lord of hosts, and despised the word of the Holy One of Israel.” (Isaiah 5:20-24)
So, two very simple questions, Amadeus: 1) Do you believe the female orgasm is sinful? 2) Do you believe talking to your spouse about sex is sinful?
Because, judging by your response you appear to believe that the female orgasm is sinful, that sexual intercourse should only result in the man climaxing, and that talking to a spouse about sex would qualify one as a “child of hell”. And, I definitely gather from your response that you have no idea as to how to help your spouse have an orgasm and, in fact, find it sinful to talk to your spouse about it at all – which would lead to the conclusion that your sexual intercourse is all about you and your climax (kind of like masturbation).
As for myself, I believe sex to be a beautiful thing. And, I believe communication about sex is an important aspect of a happy marriage. I want my husband to feel fulfilled in that aspect of our partnership just as much as he wants me to fulfilled in the same aspect. There is no part of that which I would feel ashamed to share with God. Since my relationship with my husband includes a sexual component, of course, it is different than my relationship with my parents. So, your insistence that I only talk about and do things with my husband that I would feel comfortable talking about and doing with my mother and father is…disturbing to say the least.
I’m seriously worried about your mental health after your last response, Amadeus. Please take the time to talk to your spouse about your sexual relationship and these strong, negative feelings you have about sex – particularly about female sexuality.
I don’t think there is anyway for us to hold a conversation about this topic. I find it degrading to speak about masturbation, but it has no place in a relationship, so I speak out. I haven’t pursued any other thread with the same tenacity.
If you want to host your guest blog post, feel free. If I choose to comment there, I set the stage for you to ask your question, but I’ll tell you now, you will find nada, zip, zilch, the big goose egg from me on the subject of my spouse. I find deep, penetrating questions about my relationship with my spouse to be offensive and also none of your business. You will glean nothing there but my ire. It is disgraceful that you would even ask about that. I, in turn, have not asked you for your input on those questions, so in response to the above details, “Ewww…TMI!” I would not ever share that with anybody, there are certain things you do not even ask or even want to know.
Have you ever pondered why there is so very little about the mother of heaven spoken of in the scriptures? If I had to guess, it is because she is very sacred to our heavenly father. If he is anything like his son, it will not be well for Fools that rush in where Angels fear to tread.
Bishops, Stake Presidents, and Mission Presidents are all known for asking extremely invasive, personal, detailed questions regarding masterbation and sexual situations of both the females and males they privately interrogate. I agree with you that that practice is deeply wrong. However, husband and wife should talk to one another about their sexual relationship – unless you actually believe that only your bishop should know about your wife’s preferences in the bedroom. Deep, penetrating questions about your sexuality and your spouses sexuality have been considered a valid topic of conversation among various middle-aged, male acquaintances with various titles for quite some time now. 🙂 I’m ask in an anonymous person rhetorical questions which is very different from the deep, personal, intimate knowledge your male acquaintances at church feel entitled to have about both you and your spouse. ;). Please let these men know your outrage once they start demanding such intimate information from your young children.
Jennifer,
you have deflected responsibility for your comments and misdirected the criticism. In my view, a Bishop does not interrogate nor ask unseemly explorative questions about sexual congress and orgasms as you have. He listens to both you and to the spirit and offers counsel based on inspiration or personal testimony. In my experience, it has often surprised me that the bishop will say things that I myself am thinking and we are often in full agreement. I have never spoken about the bedroom to my bishop, and he has never asked. That you imply that he grills the members of his congregation asking inappropriate and unseemly questions rather than questions that pertain to personal worthiness or one’s standing before the lord, is a gross distortion when cast upon the bishop’s in my life.
I am not a bishop, nor have I been one, so proceeding much further than this is speculative, let’s agree that we do not see eye-to-eye. There are lines you do not cross, sometimes you have to draw them clearly so people aren’t careless, here is mine, my spouse and my bedroom are off-limits. I’ll leave it at that.
“…Deep, penetrating questions about your sexuality and your spouses sexuality have been considered a valid topic of conversation among various middle-aged, male acquaintances with various titles for quite some time now. :)…”
Let’s simplify this, you’re saying, “Because “This” has been done by “Them” for a long time, it is OK.” that is very poor reasoning, morally speaking. I do not carry on in the jaded manner you relate and that is not what the savior would do. The Lord’s counsel is timeless, so time has no bearing on his counsel and he remembers everything he has said.
“…Amadeus says that he has no right to ask anyone about masturbation…”
Finally, I continue to find talking about masturbation distasteful, but I am offering a dissenting viewpoint to promote the cause for higher morals rather than diminished ones. I am not asking. I’m telling. A favorite scripture in Revelation 3:15-16 speaks strongly to my own desires to better myself…
“15 I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot.
16 So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.”
This is consistent with my way of thinking, I do not wish to be a weak and feeble follower of the gospel, but salt that has not lost its savor.
Bishops are ordained priesthood leaders, with keys and authority. Bishops don’t stand between you and the door, one hand holding it shut, the other pointing menacingly at you and you’re a captive till you spill your guts. Questions they ask, when guided by the spirit, should never be unseemly or too personal. If *anyone* asks you a question that you do not feel compelled by your conscience to answer for your repentance, hold your peace. You will return to the bishop if you have not fully repented which includes confession of those sins such as masturbation. Tell the bishop only those things that cause you grief when you kneel in prayer, if not the bishop, the stake president. You know what those things are because your soul will not rest and you will not possess an inner calm and peaceful strength that secures your happiness and contentment against all worldly turmoil. If you do not feel you can confess to the bishop, speak to your heavenly father, ask him to help you find the strength and to inspire the leaders to find a way to help you. Plead with him that you want to be at peace and do everything he would ask of you. Don’t underestimate the value of persistence. No matter how many times you fail, never give up, good things are worth working hard for.
You really make way too much of a natural action. You need to chill out. Not sure why you care what others are doing in their own pants! (Or out) it’s not scientific or religious. It’s just what people do. I know a girl who just divorced her 2nd husband over this. Can’t you see that that teaching is so harmful! It hurts people. Stay out of our bedrooms I say! We are meant to have sexual pleasure. At least masterbation is safer than a whore! Get a life……
My apologies if my responses sound stiff and short, I am not devoting a lot of time to this, but I am taking the opportunity to further elaborate.
“You really make way too much of a natural action.”
Mosiah 3:19
“For the natural man is an enemy to God…”
Roman 8:6-7
“6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace.
7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.”
“You need to chill out.”
In other words with emphasis, “Ignore your personal feelings that happen to be supported by scripture and the faith you follow”. This is bad advice.
“…Not sure why you care what others are doing in their own pants! (Or out) it’s not scientific or religious…”
I don’t care about what they are doing , I am not asking. In fact I am asking people who keep sharing details, to STOP SHARING! I was sharing my perspective on what would encourage more righteous living. As touching religion, we believe the body is a temple, thus bringing pause to how we use it (see 1 Corinthians 3:16-17).
“16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
17 If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.”
If you believe God created all things, every good thing comes from God (ideas, inspirations, creations on the earth below or in heaven above), etc. really there is nothing that is not related to religion in one way or another. Science observes all things but is blind to the supernatural and is only dimly aware of their purpose, thus despite being a diminutive partner, it touches all things as well.
“It’s just what people do.”
People also are bigots, lie, cheat and steal. This hardly seems like sound reasoning.
“I know a girl who just divorced her 2nd husband over this. Can’t you see that that teaching is so harmful! It hurts people.”
That is sad, but people make bad decisions all the time on both sides, bad consequences, is not proof of improper doctrine. One scriptural corollary to this might be in John 9:1-3…
“1 And as Jesus passed by, he saw a man which was blind from his birth.
2 And his disciples asked him, saying, Master, who did sin, this man, or his parents, that he was born blind?
3 Jesus answered, Neither hath this man sinned, nor his parents: but that the works of God should be made manifest in him.”
“Stay out of our bedrooms I say!”
The bedroom is a place where, in my view, 1 Corinthians 7:4 enlarges our understanding about honoring our marriage covenants…
“4 The wife hath not power of her own body, but the husband: and likewise also the husband hath not power of his own body, but the wife.”
“We are meant to have sexual pleasure. At least masturbation is safer than a whore! Get a life…”
I will concede that we are meant to have free agency and that our choices result in curses or blessings (aka consequences). We are meant to be in control of our bodies, not controlled by them. I haven’t spoken against sex with your spouse, masturbation is what I have railed against. Accepting the lesser of 2 evils is not the choice our heavenly father intended for us, lest we forget that the pathway to hell that is paved with good intentions.
I don’t know how to respond to the “get a life” comment on a public comment forum. If one has a contrary point of view, your suggestion implies that “get a life” –> go-away –> “shut-up” is a better course of action than to “speak out”, how ironic.
“Okay. If you are a man, consider how you would feel if you discovered that your wife masturbated. Would you feel like she was destroying your marriage? would you feel that she was rejecting your special spirit?”
Most likely, you’d just ask if you could watch…
Wait a second: Amadeus says that he has no right to ask anyone about masturbation. But, that is exactly what Mormon bishops do to boys and girls from the time they are 12 and older: Sit in a private room with no one else present and inquire as to these young peoples’ masturbatory habits. I thought Amadeus was Mormon, but now that I reread his outrage on anyone asking anyone else about masturbation I’m thinking he/she is not – since Amadeus’s outrage would have to be directed squarely against all of the bishops, stake presidents, and mission presidents who ask people about their sexual habits *all the time*.
Get help.
Slug bug yellow! (punch). I remember doing these kinds of things as a kid..ah memories.
No, I think Edwin and the readers who liked his comment were serious: You need help. There is deep self hatred and self disgust in you that is, ironically, vomiting out towards others. You have a hatred for your created body and it results in your saying things that are full of venom.
Self-hatred? Holy cow. I call masturbation disgusting and it is. My body is completely fine. Be a man, have some self-control. If you think masturbation demonstrates self-control, we’re done, any questions?
Do you consider self-control a virtue in all contexts? Do you consider supressing all bodily needs virtuous? How about eating? How about sleeping? Why is the impulse to masturbate different from eating (or overeating)?
Regardless of the merits of attempting to supress sexual urges that do not infringe social conventions, I too think the level of vitriol in your comment indicates this is a subject dear to do. Perhaps you are trying to quit the practice for religious reasons (and failing) and felt bothered because the author’s arguments have partially decreased your will.
I had a bishop at BYU — a handsome fellow with a stunningly beautiful wife — who NEVER felt the slightest twinge (he admitted to me) of sexual temptation. NEVER. I was amazed (and stupefied).
Years later my wife and I spoke with his wife. She confessed her disappointment with the fact that she had to BEG her husband to have sex with her. He showed no interest. They had no children. His testosterone levels, she said, were so low that her husband didn’t even have to shave! They could not have children together and were forced to adopt.
This explains a lot!
I can attest to the “stress test” conclusions cited here, after my first marriage failed (when I was 27). I used to rue the hormonal tsunamis that plagued me. “God, take this drive away from me!” I cried. But years of torment and anguish nonetheless ensued (with all the accompanying LDS “baggage”).
Then I married my current wife (when I was 38). We had seven children together — attributable, in no small part, to that libido I cursed and wished to to be gone.
I thank God that He did NOT answer my prayers when I offered them!
Now I am 52 and the desire has almost completely waned. I was remarking to myself at the beach yesterday how when I saw a scantily clad woman walk by, I was far more interested in looking at her face than anywhere else. What a difference age makes! I now see people as I did when I was a child. It’s hormones and religious training that have made me who I am now.
While obsession with sexual expression is unwholesome, sexual “release” — for the male, at least — is about as natural and necessary as passing gas. Would anyone assign a moral stigma or dictate “abstinence” to farting, under all circumstances?
Were they to do so — while requiring anything less than a “no-carb” diet — the results would disappointing, if not debilitating, even catastrophic! A non-masturbatory male population is achievable, but would someone please point me to the Standard Works dictating that such is necessary, even advisable? The sin of Onan was “using” the woman for sexual gratification while denying her the opportunity for motherhood.
Thank you for your courageous — if not quirky — insight.
Thanks for sharing your experience. I think your analogy on “passing gas” is very apt. I wrote about a similar take on it here:
http://thoughtsonthingsandstuff.com/sharp-toothed-snail/
The Thinker of Thoughts is not alone in this theory. The last 10 minutes of the Infants on Thrones podcast episode titled “Little Factories” discusses the idea that BKP suffers from similar mis-attribution. One of the panel members says he arrived at this conclusion after analyzing the text and audio of the Little Factories talk and subsequent pamphlet as well as considering other conference talks BKP has given.
Wasn’t BKP also the person who essentially said that women on their periods counted as being comparable to men having orgasms or some other ridiculous nonsense? I sincerely pity such men’s sexual partners. Because, men with that level of ignorance are simply using their partners for their own sexual pleasure without regard to their spouses’ sexual fulfillment.
One of the interesting things about the Mormon obsession with masturbation is that it is primarily an obsession with the male orgasm. I honestly wonder if many Mormon men have any sort of understanding of female sexuality. I think what would help this subject a great deal is the acknowledgement of female sexuality and the reality that the female orgasm is completely unattached to the penile-vaginal sex act.
This conversation might be the funniest thing I’ve read in a long time. Thanks Amadeus. I’m assuming you are having a bit of fun trolling as a provocateur. I love performance art. 🙂
Look I’m tired, but I’ll give you a few more giggles and make more of a fool of myself to imagine that this is doing anything but entertaining the yay-sayers entangled in his priestcraft. Basically, I call ’em like I see ’em. If he put it out here on the internet to just have people give him high-fives, then you may have a point and I might owe him an apology. He never presented one single compelling argument to “yield to the enticings of the flesh.” He didn’t even wrest the scriptures to try and make his point. This is 100% Stinker BS mingled with charts and graphs. All this article is saying is, “I want to masturbate, please church let me masturbate guilt free, you can tell god what his commandments are, just sort of interpret them my way, revelation’s a crap shoot anyway, right ‘cuz if God doesn’t open the heavens and command us in every little thing and explain the crap out of every little commandment, that means we can do it right? If you don’t stop demonizing masturbation, I might commit suicide, you don’t want that do you? Well you must not be the true church and this is one more reason why. I can’t fight my natural urges, god can’t and doesn’t want that (I won’t quote any scriptures though, just trust me on this). The ONLY way I can be sane is to masturbate. Don’t demonize such a beautiful thing! It’s healthy, just because the body will periodically release spermatozoa if I don’t masturbate isn’t enough, I NEED to masturbate, I just do, there’s no denying it, but I’m not addicted. I’m going to pretend that this doesn’t increase my sexual appetite for more and more sex. I am in control of my noodle, I can stop anytime. My carnal appetites will never lead me to want to do more, if anything they die out as I get older (well not completely according to the chart, but ignore that). The body doesn’t adapt itself to a certain type of sexual high where more of the same isn’t enough. Those old guys are claiming victory over masturbation when in reality they are just limp chimps and can’t get the motor running anymore, so it’s a hollow victory. Ignore outliers like some old “over 50″ guys who have absolutely no control with sexual appetites that are never ever satisfied who somehow are able to get it up every day to rape their victims which we read about in the news. Ignore the observation that the men have, on average, about as high a sexual desire or testosterone level from 18-50 and remain higher than before puberty well beyond 80, also ignore the fact that the charts have pigeonholed everyone with different behaviors (and sexual habits) into the same group. I don’t need to conduct a study, I can just whip out a chart on testosterone levels, and draw imaginary conclusions because it sounds plausible. And when I’m yoinkin’, if the internet has taught me anything its that my spouse will be better for it because I’ll be thinking of her and even though she’s not telepathic, she’ll know that I am giving her all my attention. I’m in control.” Give me a break, if you like hearing that, more power to you, brother.
Wait a minute, I’ve got it! Amadeus, you’re Elder Packer, aren’t you? I didn’t think people your age could use the internet.
Hello there Rufio, so this is where the posts devolve into “You… you man! Stupid, stupid man!”. Society (and Stinky) certainly seems to agree with you that once you reach a certain age, your opinion or relevance to “modern” society matters less, not more. Good luck with that, by the time you read this your own opinion will be worth less (oooo, cool unintended double entendre) by your own condemnation, till one day you’re just as old as Elder Packer minus the wisdom granted by the denial of self which is a prerequisite to greater and more precious spiritual experiences. You are slipping into irrelevance on your own terms. How very peculiar.
Huh?
… and wha?
Amadeus, your advocacy of ‘self denial’ (what a genuinely sad terminology) in light of your frenzied confabulations does not persuade. Someone with more repose, and self introspection… and deeply felt (and eloquently expressed) respect for his brother in God… might have swayed me… could have given one a moment’s pause… made one think that perhaps I have misunderstood.
But your twisted condemnations, self righteous trumpeting, obsessive focus on sex, and bodily functions, confirm my earliest suspicions… that one cannot retain balance, health, (both physically and emotionally) and respect for one’s fellow creatures while one has lost autonomy and self respect.
Regarding your cryptic post, I don’t know what ‘relevance’ has to do with anything… it has held very little weight with the choices I make. (I sometimes find your use of words to be mushy, and slightly skewed… as if you were either a foreign speaker of english, or on some powerful medication… I can’t tell which.)
Elder Packer’s wisdom, and ‘precious spiritual experiences’ are up for debate. If anyone was a candidate for the forcible pumping of a strong intravenous dose of the milk of human kindness, he is. I hope he lives a long long life. He will need that time to fully make up for the grief he has poured upon several generations of mormon youth. Should he really understand his role in the misery, suicide, and rejection of the gospel, his torment would be excessive. And no one would wish that kind of pain on anybody.
Amadeus, you have have the rest of your life ahead of you… do you really want to be the minion of such a little man?
So *Now* you want to have a conversation? You have a strange way of starting one, but perhaps because of my somewhat unorthodox approach to pushback verbally in writing I earned that, so very well, let’s move past that.
Let me say first, that this is not a Simon and Schuster audio/blog response on “How to win friends and influence people”. I’m on the offensive and my t-shirt says “I don’t sugar coat crap, I’m not Willy Wonka!”. If you want “soft and cuddly”, let’s pick a different venue and you and I can exchange pleasantries, here I am drawing lines in the earth and you’re on the other side of the line. You are not my friend, you’re my brother and I’m upset that you (and others that share your view) think it’s “ok” to behave as you’re behaving. People are allowed to disagree and be passionate about how they feel about it, get comfortable with that.
I am not being nice, sweet and polite offering you cookies and asking you about your have’s and have-not’s while you sip lemonade on your porch wondering if I am truly neighborly or just a plastic two-faced faker. I’ve seen others try the “nice guy” approach with mixed results. You just have to figure out for yourself if the village idiot might actually be someone who has something worth listening too or not, the quality of the information will stand on it’s own. Even Benjamin Franklin knew that good ideas could come from anywhere and we’re ages beyond kites, keys and discovering electricity. Also there’s a saying, “Never bring a knife to a gun fight”. This is the internet, the equivalent of the wild west of our day, I hope you’ll forgive me if I bring a little bit more than a toothbrush and a smile. Maybe I’m still holding a knife while you’re holding a gun, but I’m just the red shirt flunky, the messenger, or the guy with the oversized #1 finger hand in the stands cheering my side. I’ll do you the courtesy of showing you plainly where I stand and fly up my colors so you know my intentions long before you see me. 😉 When we’re done, we can shake hands, have a good laugh, and hopefully be friends. For the moment, that is, perhaps, a distant possibility, and I’m just planting an idea, it’s totally up to you what you do with it.
Blah, blah, blah…now back to business…
Masturbation is a disgusting topic and I’m not happy to be here to talk about it, but apparently I need to be. let’s not pull any punches and be brutally honest about masturbation. We could define it, describe it, dissect the act for what it is, but I’ld really rather not if you don’t actually know what it is, then we’re speaking about this out of turn. What I am seeing here is hiding it’s repugnance behind a mask of sterile language stripped of it’s ugliness by hiding behind words and graphs that feel unfamiliar in our mouths and disconnected from real life examples. Regardless of how I look at it, it’s not pretty. If I had to give it a face it would be the face of a monster that bears a striking resemblance to the “real life” zombies described in Genesis 19.
I am an advocate for standing up for something (in this case continence), but my manner shows extreme prejudice for smooth language that dresses base behavior, such as masturbation , as anything but what it is. In my view, it has no place in our lives. I am especially against arguments that legitimize it under the umbrella of any argument such as promoting its use for health benefits, suggesting that counsel to refrain leads to suicide, insinuating that men that counsel abstinence and claiming to have overcome the burden are too old to have a “pulse” (figuratively speaking), protests that morals are out of step with our social norms (as if ethical relativism is a reliable anchor we can give our children…yeah “if” is good), that by exercising self-mastery one is demonstrably a mindless flunky to those who uphold the view that masturbation will lead to spiritual bankruptcy.
I will not wink at God while giving the nod to reasoning that gives place for moral debauchery. I will disparage views that set base acts in any degree nearer to virtuous ones. Good, strong, family men and young boys becoming men have made too many compromises already, too many retreats. Views such as those this blog disgorges are poisonous LIES. I say, “Not again. The line must be drawn here! This far, no further!”
I understood masturbation was wrong long before I ever listened to talks by Elder Packer, but I find my views in very strong agreement with his counsel and wisdom as much as I have known him. Counsel from leaders in the church have only helped me find a better version of myself (which I am not showing here because we are sparring). Wether you view me as a minion or a disciple is really just a matter of which end of the candle you’re lighting and how you want to squint your eyes at my vantage point. The little man is only as little as you esteem him and you mischaracterize how members esteem the elders in the church. It’s certainly true that some members can get carried away, but speaking for myself, I don’t go to church wondering what the apostles are going to think of me or for me. The only time I even think about them is when I do my home teaching or when I view conference online or on TV and then I am only looking for, counsel, further instruction and reassurance or to ponder contradictions to my own insights in answer to my prayers and continuing hope for greater understanding.
Though I am sure others such as Stinky do not share my point of view and can certainly make arguments about “cults”, “gilded cages”, “sweet lies” and “bitter truths” and so on, let’s stay focused on masturbation, shall we. My position is very simple. Masturbation under any cloud is bad. You want to have a go at me, pose your case for masturbation, but don’t you dare try and hide it behind some flimsy excuse or justification. Be ballsy, cast off your sheep clothing and show me your fangs as you’ve already started to do. Maybe you could expound on my twisted condemnations, where I am self-righteous, or my frenzied confabulations (bravo for finding a place to write this phrase, you should give yourself a tweak on the cheek and call yourself “special”). What you suspect about me is really irrelevant, I’m not putting myself on a pedestal but I am putting a shovel in the neck of masturbation, that is my true enemy and those who make place for it are not those who I would call friends.
In parting, I’ll leave some sayings and scriptures that I think are helpful to people struggling to overcome masturbation.
“An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.”
D&C 121: 45-46
“…let virtue garnish thy thoughts unceasingly….
I especially liked this one, and often pondered it as I was maturing…
D&C 88:63
“…Draw near unto me and I will draw near unto you…”
Try and awaken a remembrance of who you are or were before you came here and make your life a testament to that person. You chose to stay with our father, you chose the path of agency and the hope of one day being crowned as a righteous king or queen, not after the kings and queens of earth but to be like a true king even as Jesus Christ with real hope, power, authority, love, charity, faith and good works.
Consider for a moment that if Adam was the archangel Michael, that Jesus was Jehovah, that you were someone too and you will one day return to a remembrance of who you were and what you have become. This time *is* hard, there are hard things for us to overcome but we must not slacken our resolve. We need to overcome these things so that the spirit can dwell within us, so that we can be worthy sons and daughters of our heavenly father and we can stand with our ancestors who gave and sacrificed for us and for our God.
I really enjoy the verse from “Come, Come, Ye Saints” that says…
“…Why should we think to earn a great reward
If we now shun the fight?
Gird up your loins; fresh courage take.
Our God will never us forsake …”
It says so much about what is real to me. I also love the message in this song…
“I am His daughter”
Perhaps I live in a fantasy world but I’ve always believed the world is what you make it, some call this fiction, some call it faith. We’ll all know someday I suppose. You too have your whole life before you, do you want to continue to serve the “little man”?
@ Amadeus:
I know you mean well, and I do not share commonly irreverent views concerning the topic of masturbation, but I think you’ve gone overboard. I think much of the original post surrounds the idea that many leaders have gone overboard on the issue, which has lead to errors both by members and leaders. The most recent Church Handbook has included some language to ensure those errors are not committed by leaders. As well, Spencer W. Kimball makes an important statement that I think gets overlooked because it is surrounded by a tempest of condemnation for sexual sin in general and a zeal for arresting the influence of the world upon the views of Church members. That statement on the on the topic of Masturbation comes from The Miracle of Forgiveness, Chapter 6, which is pretty much the only authority cited by Church Leaders and it’s literature on the subject. It is as follows:
“Most youth come into contact early with masturbation. […] While we should not regard this weakness as the heinous sin which some other sexual practices are, it is itself bad enough to require sincere repentence.”
Sincere repentence is required for a whole host of sins which are also not to be considered heinous.
In case you think I’m trying to cut a mis-leading sound-bite from the broader text, I’ll repeat that I believe the above quoted statements are overlooked, even lost in the barrage of superlatives that characterize President Kimball’s zeal to condemn sin, as evinced all over the book, not just with sexual sin. That is the reason I have drawn it out as I have.
His counsel, as repeated by General Authorities and any Church literature that I have seen is “to avoid the practice.” I don’t think I’ve ever seen such wording used in the Church concerning any other sin. To be specific, but from another address by President Kimball:
“Masturbation, a rather common indiscretion, is not approved of the Lord nor of his church, regardless of what may have been said by others whose “norms” are lower. Latter-day Saints are urged to avoid this practice.” (https://www.lds.org/general-conference/1980/10/president-kimball-speaks-out-on-morality?lang=eng)
He’s saying it’s not okay. Likewise, he’d say it’s not okay to skip church and I’m sure an individual who is not attending Church would have to be rehabilitated, for lack of a better term, to be able to obtain a temple recommend or serve a mission. I’m drawing a partial analogy here, because I am not saying the masturbation is on the level poor church attendance, since I do not know which is worse and knowing which is worse probably doesn’t matter much.
Yes, he does go on to say the “[a]nyone fettered by this weakness should abandon the habit before he goes on a mission or receives the holy priesthood or goes in the temple for his blessings,” but keep in mind the analogy above. There are a whole host of sins or lack of abiding by certain Church practices (not paying tithing, for one) that would prevent those things.
What is also very important to keep in mind is that when reading both Kimball sources (especially The Miracle of Forgiveness) it becomes apparent that there was a heightened fear that the practice would lead to graver sexual sins, including mutual masturbation, fornication and homosexuality. I believe that some of his views of where it might lead (especially that of it possibly causing homosexuality) are not accepted today, even by leaders of the Church. One can tell that attitudes at the time were such that homosexuality had a tremendous stigma and was considered far more repugnant than fornication, even if sins of a homosexual nature acts are not more grave in nature than those of a heterosexual nature.
The fear that A might lead to B or C or D, which are heinous sexual sins requiring heavy repentance and even consequences with one’s membership, explains the zeal with which and many leaders have spoken…as well as some of the misplaced attitudes that emerge on the topic.
The bible states that a man should not have sex with his mother, sister, etc. To most people this is obvious. However, nowhere in the bible does it say to not masturbate. So apparently the Lord doesn’t mind if people release built up pressure now and again. Use good judgement and go by the spirit.
A common method of control throughout human history has been via guilt over normal behaviors and what can be called “victimless crimes”. Thus you have women demonized for having menstruation, children demonized for speaking, and (the horror) everyone with a sex drive demonized for masturbation. Very, very common form of attempted psychological control over a population of any sort.
If people are truly innocent and chaste they wouldn’t consider themselves superior when it comes to sex. I struggle with some porn and constant masturbation (like 3-4 times a week).
May I ask what makes me any different than a man who says: “I make some sex jokes and have sex with my wife 3-4 times a week.” What makes me soo different??? I agree god didn’t design our bodies for masturbation, but “self-abuse” is emotinal and mental. I abuse my self esteem and let satan control my thoughts for the worse.
The truth is, anti-masturbatory comments from the church and non-religious people alike are nothing more than a display of bullying and pride.
Truth be put that God would probably handle masturbators differently than your typical lds bishop. Somewhere deep in my heart I know that. And when those bishops suggest to pray, speaking with God, I should say Heavenly Father, is the most effective thing we can all of us do. Nobody knows us better than God and Christ. Heavenly Father designed us after all.
So what I am trying to say is that no matter what your personal opinions and detailed niches you may have regarding sex, there is no hope to find from discussion with those on earth. A marriage is a triangle between God and the couple…. speak with your spouse if you want to but those who are vain will sadly find that feigning ignorance for causing any pain to others in this life is only met with pain for them in the next.
I thank the author of this article for articualting the facts and that is namely: sex drive is real. And there is no escaping it… Every parent should try their greatest to prevent masturbation. But every child of God (young or old) ought to treat eachother with kindness and respect. I personally would never never! attack someone for struggling with masturbation… I don’t believe in it or in other words support it. But neither do I think Heavenly Father or Moses (as the author pointed out) would find belittling and punishing people for it effective at all.
Masturbation is spiritually detrimental. If this statement is true than how much more pain do I have to bear? Why is this church soo focused on the wrong things?
Did you know that if you type the word “sex” in lds.org that you’ll get more results about gays than ANYTHING else? I am not trying to be offensive to gays because of my beliefs but the statistical disparity between gay men and ‘Young Men Who Masturbate’ is ASTRONOMICAL!!! The church seems to punish masturbation more and give more and more credence to homosexuals that it INFURIATES ME!
If anybody sees this post Please, please! Report it to others! Let people in the lds church know my pain! This pain that so many others share, Many young people struggle with masturbation but because of corruption cannot get the proper support in their own church! I don’t mean to be pointing fingers but the author of this article is right! Many “Lie” to survive the gauntlet! Most of us singles are waiting to use our bodies for righteousness and nobody wants shame! The bullying has to stop! The focus needs to shift away from the minority (gays, no offense here! But seriously!!!!!). If the leaders of the church truly believe in their standards than they need to make their policies clear as lens glass… admit! ADMIT that there is nothing wrong with the struggle against masturbation! (Admit there is something wrong with current procedures such as having people not partake of the sacrament until their addiction is completely rid of) Give us the spiritual and emotional support!
To those parents who allow it on purpose, shame on you…. not every parent is held accountable for mistakes but if any of you openly encourage masturbation and turn your spite towards the modest Shame on you! And if any of you declare their love of family but in disdain and pride spew your spite at the Humble and Broken of Heart… Shame on you too!
Please let us treat eachother as christ would. I give you all my testimony to the tragedy of ME… a young man who masturbated and cannot get himself to serve a mission. I am an honest young man with no social life and desperately want to attend my YSA ward again but cannot. I am on the verge of Anxiety and Depression. I love God’s blessings and I love my family. However I will never be the man Heavenly Father truly wanted me to be. My mind is overcome with self doubt as I type this message, hoping that someone might change the world. That someone will stop the bullying amd heart break. I hope for a better me but more importantly I hope for a better You…
Pleas take my message with sincerity and faith. I believe in Christ! And I believe in his church; The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. I believe to the point that I think right now I’d go to hell if I died. But let this not discourage you but let it bolster your faith! Be not afraid of themes of death and life, light and darkness, evil against good! Let the light of Christ in your lives!!!
I beg of anybody reading this to please leave sex to God’s hands and stop feeding the grease fire more fuel. When we argue whether masturbation is wrong or right, nobody wins! 🙁 We must tackle these problems in a different way. The author of this article makes a very good point that older leaders and occasionally young too have dramatically different sex drives than the majority of people. Learning self control is attatched to both the physical hormones but also to self esteem! Let us not belittle eachother! God made us sexual. By no means does the previous statement mean we should masturbate! But more importantly any attacks whether self inflicted, peer inflicted, bishop inflicted, or otherwise (Satan) is extremely detrimental to solving the problem at hand!
Let me say it again; damaging self esteem leads to a vicious cycle that for those who have a habit to masturbate, will continue to.
God forgive me. I had no more faith in myslef or him to solve it! But please please parents prevent this! And everyone else, well, let be what is and focus on helping others. A famous quote once said; “If you have nothing good to say, say nothing at all!”
In the name of Jesus Christ amen…