In the October 2015 General Conference of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, Gary E. Stevenson described his experience as he was called to be one of the newest Apostles of Jesus Christ.
In this video, one Mormon woman relates an inspirational message about how the account of the newly ordained Apostle instructed her in what Mormon women are blessed to receive in this life and the next.
Jamie Handis Handy eloquently and concisely puts into words what so many LDS women have felt.
This brief excerpt can be found at the end of Part 1 of this Mormon Stories Podcast.
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Very thought provoking.
Wow! This really struck me. Powerful.
what a load of crap. I disagree with all of what she said and she is using things out of context to prove her point. It’s shameful actually.
What’s “out of context”? The apostle just admitted he didn’t consult with his wife before accepting a calling that would affect her and her family. How would I feel if my spouse accepted a new job without discussing it with me? Devalued.
Well then it’s a good thing that YOU aren’t married to Gary E. Stevenson. Why don’t you let HIS WIFE determine for herself the appropriate emotional response to his calling. If she isn’t offended it makes no sense to me that others are.
How do you know she wasn’t offended? We don’t get to hear from her..
We don’t get to hear from her
Which actually proves the podcaster’s point.
Ah, the insurmountable argument of “what a load of crap”.
What’s shameful is your total lack of compassion. Sad that you would think that only your experiences and your feelings and thoughts are valid. She speaks for many women.
I like this from Elder Anerson from conference. about how everyone in the world gets to choose to believe whatever they want. faith is a choice, sustaining leaders is a choice. trying to navigate faith crisis is a choice. hang on there people, don’t give up!
”Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ
is not something ethereal, floating loosely in the air. Faith does not
fall upon us by chance or stay with us by birthright. It is, as the
scriptures say, “substance … , the evidence of things not seen.”5 Faith emits a spiritual light, and that light is discernible.6 Faith in Jesus Christ is a gift from heaven that comes as we choose to believe7 and as we seek it and hold on to it. Your faith is either growing stronger or becoming weaker. Faith is a principle of power, important not only in this life but also in our progression beyond the veil.8 By the grace of Christ, we will one day be saved through faith on His name.9 The future of your faith is not by chance, but by choice.”
This is SPOT ON!!!!!!!!!!!! Thank you!
I would humbly suggest as an ex Mormon that you try praying to the virgin Mary. I have done this many times both in conversation form and using the rosary. I personally believe that she is the Devine Feminine incarnation. In Doreen Virtue’s book Mary Queen of angels is a beautiful detailed guide about how she can help us all. God bless you
I don’t mean to be rude, but the worship and praying to Mary began hundreds of years after Christ and was actually a babylonian worship philosophy carried on in Roman and Greek form. Im not saying you shouldn’t worship the divine feminine, but just realize that that is ancient stuff and has nothing to do with the worship of Jesus.
Wow this is very emotionally charged. Why is she so concerned with what someone else’s husband does? Maybe years ago laying in bed they discussed such a scenario about what they would do in the event of it happening and thus didn’t need to discuss it. Why does she stay in a church that makes her feel so depressed? When she prays does god tell her sorry tough titty? I highly doubt it. I hope she will come to see her identity in Christ and not a church. Christ is our mother in so many ways if we will but open our eyes. And no one has ever been a better mother than he! We could learn so much about life if we did what he said,”behold thy mother mother behold thy son” perhaps Mary saw her own heavenly mother within Jesus. God bless.
Jamie Handis Handy is assessing the way Gary Stevenson and his wife interact in their marriage, including what private understandings and commitments they have to each other, which she can obviously know nothing about. She apparently has an axe to grind, and super sensitive feelings surrounding the issue of being disregarded by men, and has identified a situation which appears to support her own predispositions. Rather than focusing and obsessing about every small detail of church leaders lives and behaviors, we are better served to work on our own relationship with our God. Take the rest of it with a grain of salt.
I don’t think she is that concerned about the way other people interact in their marriage. But hearing about this event in someone else’s life caused an emotional response that awakened her to the reality of her position in her faith. Nor is it about super sensitivity. Jamie is simply sharing a personal feeling, a personal testimony if you like, no different to anyone else sharing an emotional experience or testimony regarding some other topic in their faith. Each of us have topics that we become passionate about. Jamie is obviously emerging as a feminist and the small details of church leaders lives really have nothing to do with it, what is important to her is that she has had a sort of epiphany, an awakening. The vehicle by which she had this moment of inspired thought are inconsequential, and to state that she is obsessed with leaders lives or sensitive to being disregarded by men is really just an attempt to minimise her very personal and spiritual experience.
I love it when Mormons say, “Why do you stay? Love it or leave it.” Such a Christ-like approach. And what is this nonsense about Christ being our Heavenly Mother? Are you sure you’re a Mormon? That’s a pretty basic doctrine: we have a mother and a father, just like we do on Earth. Christ is not our mother, and He does not seek to be. That role is already filled. The fact that Heavenly Mother means so little to you speaks volumes about the church.
If you had listened to Elder Holland’s talk last week her statement would make sense to you. You sure make a lot of ASSumptions. For someone who is against religion, your participation in this thread serves to do nothing but encourage those on the fence to leave. Hardly a Christ-like approach either.
Elder Hollands talk is part of the problem. It absolutely reinforced the harmful rhetoric that is so prevelant in the church.
he was saying that for christians, when they are tempted to sin, to think of how it may effect mother. This rings very true, because many an older man, after being in sin, has lamented of how much pain he caused his mother. Remember, im just talking about religious moms. so really his talk was very pertinent for the subject he was focusing on. religious mothers are pained if their children become immoral in any way. its just a fact’
Lol. Thank you for driving my point home. I don’t oppose religion. I oppose people who wield it to demean others, such as Amanda Dillenburg and yourself.
I listened to his talk, and what she says is still as nonsensical as ever.
That’s just weird.
We are on earth to strive to obtain charity which is the pure love of Christ. “And charity suffereth long and is kind, is not puffed up and seeketh not her own…” We are not here to get, this life experience has never been about what we get, it has never been self serving. When you do something because of what you get out of it, then you get your self fish reward and that is all. I can testify that when we strive to be like our Savior who never ever seeked his own, He always did the will of the Father, that we are blessed beyond comprehension. I know this because I have seen it in my life. I don’t care what mistakes or errors the apostle and prophets or anyone else makes, the atonement covers them too and I love my Lord and Savior Jesus Christ so much that I won’t let any earthly mans shortcomings keep me from him. I’m sorry for what this woman is feeling, but these are things we must struggle with and wonder about and come to our own decisions about. I wish her well on her journey and hope she will end up finding the peace and love she is seeking in the gospel of Jesus Christ. ❤️
The entire gospel is predicated on “getting.” Eternal life is the ultimate goal. Working out our own salvation. All religion is a selfish construct, but Mormonism is even moreso. God Himself chose to damn Satan and 1/3 or his own children for eternity simply for not wanting to give Him glory, according to LDS doctrine. There is no shame in wanting more for yourself. Talking down to someone, especially a fellow woman, for desiring more from the gospel than just disappearing in the service of men is mistake. Why is there such a culture of shame in the church? Please stop righteous-splaining.
It’s human nature to be aware of what we get out of what we choose to do. That’s why we keep the commandments, no? We want to bee blessed. We want that eternal reward of living with our Fathef in Heaven again in conjunction with our families. It’s how religion works. In Mormonism, however, a women’s fate is to simple fade away. Have you ever asked yourself why we are forbidden from praying to Mother in Heaven? I have. And I can’t think of a good answer. I can’t think of anything more painful than warching my children suffer and knowing they have been told that they can not look to me for help. That is the epitome of patriarchy.
I really truly believe that it is best that our Heavenly Mother is kept sacred, not secret, but sacred. Can you imagine all of the disrespect She would get, in every aspect that you can think of? People already take God’s name in vain and disgrace his name and image, imagine what they would do with a female image and name! That’s just what I think.
I wonder if you can see how diminishing this is? Why would I believe that the Queen of Heaven needs to be protected from her children while her husband and first born do not. Is it because she is weaker? Less wise? Less divine?
What you’re rationalizing eliminates her divinity.
Moreover, anyone can disgrace her name and image, even without the church teaching anything about her. Super easy.
But Leah is right: it is a projection of the church’s sexism to suggest that females, even a goddess (presumably omnipotent, omniscient, etc.), need males to shield them from reality. It is benevolent patriarchy that puts females on a pedestal.
I agree Leah. it’s the same mentality that keeps some women in niqabs and burqas, others in long skirts and covered shoulders. I quoted Margaret Merrill Toscano in an essay/blog I wrote on this very topic. She says, “absolute silence about (Heavenly Mother) does not protect her, it erases her.”
Many women have expressed these same feelings of invisibility, expressed by Jamie in this podcast, while in the temple. Wearing a veil places a barrier between woman and God, and while a husband may know his wife’s new name, she cannot know his and thus is reliant on him to face God on her behalf and call her up in to his presence. Is there really any better way to diminish a woman than to keep her hidden, faceless, nameless and without voice?
Sarah, you don’t seem to understand the Muslim culture. Women being covered seems to have very little to do with the men protecting them. It’s more because they are jealous men who don’t want other men looking at their women. Read up on it.
I actually understand it very well Carol and couldn’t possibly read up on it any more than I did while at uni. While some men may want to hide their women due to jealousy, the practice is framed by the religious leaders and culture as a method of revering and protecting women. Likewise the church claims to revere and protect women by staying quiet on Heavenly Mother, by teaching women to cover their bodies so as to make sure men don’t have impure thoughts about them, by placing the responsibility on men to call women up to heaven and veiling them in front of god so that they feel revered, protected and loved … it’s a very romantic notion which some feminism buys into as some feminists enjoy the concept that women are considered more spiritual, more altruistic, more gentle and thus belong on a pedestal… but to other more contemporary schools of feminist thought these romantic notions come entirely from the patriarchal perspective and render women invisible and voiceless. Read up on that 😉
OK, sounds like you’re more well read than I am on Muslims. But I still stick by what I understand. From my reading and observation- lots and lots of Muslims where I live-it’s sort of a mix of religious dogma and pride of the male species and an excuse to keep women under their control. But how you compare this to Heavenly Father leaves me dumbfounded. This is nothing AT ALL like how I believe God or any one of the general authorities feel about women. If you’re stuck on a paradigm like this you’re just not listening. I could give you dozens of links to praise and honor of women from the bretheren. I remember how in awe President Hinckley was of his wife. Do you think Elder Scott felt more powerful than his wife? I seriously could give you so many examples ( I’d do it if I thought you would actually read them with the intent to find truth) of where the men almost tearfully thank the Lord for the incredible positive influence of their wives in their lives. Invisible? Nope! Voiceless? Hardly!
There is a reason why the Church and ultimately the kingdom of god is set up like it is- that Heavenly Mother isn’t clearly in the picture right now. What that reason is, I can’t say but who am I to question or to think I know better than God? YIkes. That’s the very essence of pride.
As far as reading up on feminism, no thank you. It doesn’t appeal to me in any way. Feminists, especially those criticizing the church come off as angry, defiant, and mostly very unhappy. Never have I heard one who is thoughtful and willing to see any other viewpoint than their own. They are like runaway trains with this idea that men in the Church are out to silence them and squelch their potential. Any idea different than this gets run over. I think it must have something to do with their determined personalities and perhaps from negative life experience.Could be any number of reasons. but it’s baffling to me. Anyway, despite what I’ve said, I have a firm belief that the Lord loves each one of His daughters and only He knows the full extent of their potential for good. it would be great if they could see that, too.
It really isn’t a case of not listening Carol, it’s simply a case of having differing view points. There has been much written about the paradigm that exists between the measurable fact that women are not equal, and the feeling that many women have of being equal. As a well known Mormon feminist has said “equality is not a feeling.” Still, your feelings have value. You have faith in your religion and believe this is the way god intended things to be. But again, faith and facts are two different view points, one can be measured and one cannot. But I agree, if you believe these things to be true then who are you to question almighty God.
For a long long time I was baffled by the concept of “mormon feminism”. It seems on face value to be quite a contradiction in terms. I was baffled by women who claimed to believe that the Mormon church was the one true church on the face of the earth, and yet would stand up and say we don’t like it and we want it to change. My response was, well, if you believe your church is true, and you think your prophets are actually prophets, then really, who are you to argue? It was only through studying the topic and writing on it extensively at uni that I gained an understanding of “Mormon feminism” and the broader issue of female ordination in Christianity.
I have completely rejected Mormonism myself. But I no longer scoff at women who identify as Mormon yet who also seek measurable equality within their faith communities. I no longer take the attitude, “if you don’t like it then why don’t you just leave”. I have the deepest empathy for Mormon feminists, it’s a tough road to travel, and one that I feel ultimately leads to rejection of the entire religion (good in the long run but painful in the process).
As to your comments about feminist’s personalities and life experiences, I won’t even go there because your comments are just silly. Feminists come in many different shapes and sizes, with every possible personality trait among them, and not always having the same view of feminism either. You yourself are probably a feminist, you are glad to have the right to vote, to own property, to pursue gainful employment etc. Celebrating such freedoms is feminism. But you don’t have to read up on the subject if it doesn’t interest you. I was actually suggesting you read up on the topic of voiceless invisible women within your own faith, not feminism broadly…. I could also suggest you look up and read some scholarly stuff on the parallels between Mormonism and Islam, but that would aggravate you no doubt…. again, faith and facts are two different things.
Lastly, you said “the Lord loves each one of His daughters and only He knows the full extent of their potential for good. it would be great if they could see that, too.” And thats the interesting thing, Mormon feminists actually do know that God loves them and sees their potential, which is why they stand up for what they believe is right. It’s complex, and as you admit, you’re baffled and dumbfounded by it all. Hopefully over time you will gain a deeper understanding of these women, and even if you never agree with them, you will realise their feelings have value too and can’t be dismissed by rhetoric about the value of women in the church.
I don’t believe it’s just rhetoric. The reason I don’t is because I have actually witnessed how certain husbands treat their wives outside of the church. It’s just awful. (I realize this happens inside the church, too. ) But by applying gospel principles and listening to the counsel of our leaders on the matter, and really humbling themselves, these men would change the way they treat their wives. The proof is in the pudding. Y’know, “the fruits” of the gospel. My husband has never abused me or used his priesthood to try to be above me in any way. He has only used it to bless peoples lives. Men within the church who know better and still think they have authority to hurt or minimize women have no excuse. they will get their reward. But to put the general authorities and the prophet in that category is to grossly mischaracterize them.
Muslims and Mormons. I went to a Relief Society meeting that took place about two months after 9/11/01 where a Muslim woman came to talk with us and explain the similarities between our religions. I left enlightened, educated and grateful for the good parts of their religion and for the good people who are trying to be faithful. I’m not afraid of Muslims. I only get rankled by
I have found that the way men treat their wives in and out of the church to be much the same. There are good and bad people in the church and out of it. I agree with you on the issue of sharia law. I am also glad that in the case of birth control the church has improved it stance and is no longer as opposed to it as it once was.
She’s a Goddess. She can handle it. Implying that she can’t is insulting. Women don’t need to be protected. They are strong and capable. Putting them on are pedestal is not doing them are favor . it’s making them less than fully human. Same goes for Godesses. Is She an all powerful Being or not? If so, she can handle whatever God can.
Of course She can handle it. but I don’t believe God does it because He thinks She is weak. I believe it is out of respect. Yes respect…that virtue that has gone down the toilet lately.
God doesn’t do it at all. Men do it. And God can helicopter but not goddess? Sexism doesn’t come from god, it’s man made. Also, sheltering someone isn’t a sign of respect.
Or as the saying goes … “Man made God in his own image.” ~ Eckhart Tolle
You must have a different definition of sheltering than I do. God doesn’t helicopter. In fact, just the opposite. He is instilling grit in His earthly children by giving them hard stuff to do and mostly with only the briefest of instructions.
God is a title. It is not a name. Do you truly believe than an omnipotent, omniscient God needs protecting from the words of mortals? I don’t think She needs to be protected from her children and find the idea repulsive. Do you need protecting from your children?
It is human nature to do things because we benefit from doing them, but are we not commanded to put off the natural man and become divine? And, yes, I too want the blessings from being obedient, but that is not why I obey. I obey because I love my Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ. I would do anything they ask because I love them, including disappear. But I don’t feel like they’re asking me to do that. I would also say that you are the first person your children are told to go to for counsel and love. Mother knows best, and the gospel of Jesus Christ teaches that. Anyway, I’m not trying to be argumentative or contentious. I think you have valid points and everyone is entitled to feel how they feel. I wish you well on your journey and hope you find peace and love in or out of the gospel. You’re of infinite worth to our Heavenly Father and invaluable to your children! I hope you never forget how wonderful you are as a daughter of God, you are second to none!
No one has ever told me not to pray to Mother in Heaven. I think of Her often andcommunicate with her in prayer-like thoughts. I feel she knows exactly what I’m going through. I feel her support and love.
President Hinckley taught that we should not pray to Heavenly Mother. People have been excommunicated for advocating prayer to Heavenly Mother.
Not something I do in public obviously. It’s more of an almost completely undescernable but a very deep sweet spiritual connection with Her. Sacred thoughts and feelings. Those combined with feeling at times, the nearness of my own deceased mother and grandmothers assures me that Heaven truly is not far away.
Standing against inequality no matter where we find it, is one one the most Christ-like things we can ever do.
assuming inequality is not Christ like.
Lets be wise and know the difference.
Number one- “Sought” not “seeked” (which isn’t even a word). Your message becomes more powerful when the spelling, grammer, and punctuation are correct. However, the gospel which you know and love is crumbling and you’re not watching. It’s because it’s based on lies, adultery, and corrupt men. Do your research then come back and preach. http://www.cesletter.com
Oh please. CES letter rehashes (and gets wrong) the same things anti-Mormons have been claiming and getting wrong for decades. Let’s not pretend this is something new and revelatory.
For the first time in my life another person explained exactly how I felt as a woman and mother in the LDS church. My job in the LDS church is to…disappear. Thank you, thank you, thank you for bravely putting into words what so many of us think and feel. You will face so much criticism from so many people who have a PTSD reaction, who are in denial, whose existence is so ingrained in what their own husband’s do in the church, who are so blinded by their own anger – and instead of feeling anger toward those female critics recognize that they are in pain and suffering, but will take a long time to recognize what is going on around them. Jamie, you are beautiful. Thank you for putting voice to what has hurt me for so long.
Are you serious?? My husband is very lack luster in the church. I WISH he was the type of man that would be worthy of such a calling! I’m fully aware of what’s going on around me because I have been in positions of leadership! What you see as a status symbol I see as the role given to men to help them rise above themselves, be better and serve others.
The fact that you don’t feel what these other women are expressing doesn’t invalidate it. Maybe try listening to those who suffer, as opposed to disagreeing and issuing diatribes.
Do you realize how horrible you sound when you speak of your husband the way you did in your post? An antonym for worthy is worthless. Maybe you will think about that.
No one is worthy, there is no such thing.
I have seen the evil that resides inside the leadership callings. Be GRATEFUL your husband is lackluster. This means that the leadership hasn’t destroyed his honor.
Right on cue, just as Anselm predicted.
Perhaps another perspective might give you some insight- http://mormonhurt.org/the-emasculation-of-men/ .
I’m sorry men in the church feel this way. Women did not do this to you. Other men did.
I feel sorry you think so poorly of your husband. Good for you if you have been in position of leadership. Does that make you better than your husband?
My own thoughts based on Jamie Handis Handy’s comments in the recent Mormon Stories podcast: http://thoughtsonthingsandstuff.com/silence-in-heaven/
While many in the Mormon community have focused on the detail of an apostle’s wife being advised on her spouse’s new calling prior to his acceptance of that calling – few have tackled the much deeper subject of where women stand in the Eternities (which Jamie also addresses in her statement).
I am not a mormon or ex-mormon but I do know Jesus Christ . The mormon Jesus is not the Jesus of the Bible. The Bible tells us that there is no Greek(Gentiles), or Jew in God’s eyes but we are all equal. My question is this, why are you not seeking what Jesus says about you and His word? Why are you letting men define who and what you are in God’s eyes? The Lord tells us in(Psalms 25:4-5 ) Show me Your ways, O LORD; Teach me Your paths. (5) Lead me in Your truth and teach me, For You are the God of my salvation;
On You I wait all the day.
I hear this a lot. The Mormon Jesus is not the Jesus of the Bible. Can you help me understand this one? Thanks so much!
We believe that god calls prophets who are men. just like in the bible.
in our church, all apostles have been married, so apostles are also couples.
there are no ‘single’ apostles unless the spouse has died.
mormons feel that they need guidance by holy men in order to know their true identity. holy men from today and anciently to tell us who we are. this may be unpopular, but it is something we hold dear to our hearts
Oh my. So many things I disagree with! First off let’s just say that I’m NOT going to be one of those members who, in frustration, exclaims “Well, if you don’t like it just leave!”. Next, I’ll say that I COULD understand being angry if YOU had been the apostle’s wife who wasn’t present during the meeting in which this call was extended. This didn’t happen TO YOU! You have no idea, based on what he said in his conference talk, what additionally took place in that meeting. Perhaps his wife WAS invited but wasn’t able to attend. It sounds like they asked him to meet with President Monson the same day they extended the call. Perhaps they counseled him to first speak with his wife and he ALREADY KNEW that she wouldn’t hesitate in accepting this commitment with him… they have, after all, been married for upwards of 35 years! You make SO MANY assumptions based on so little information! As far as your assertions that women in the church are deemed as failures if any of their children fall away from the church: This is FALSE! There is absolutely no doctrine that supports that claim! Whatever happened to individual choice and accountability? If anything, I find peace in knowing that should any of my children go astray, that through my righteous living they can still be sealed to me if I keep my temple covenants!
“Let the father and mother, who are members of this Church and kingdom, take a righteous course,
and strive with all their might never to do a wrong, but to do good all their lives; if they have one child or
one hundred children, if they conduct themselves towards them as they should, binding them to the Lord
by their faith and prayers. I care not where those children go, they are bound up to their parents by an
everlasting tie, and no power of earth or hell can separate them from their parents in eternity; they will
return again to the fountain from whence they sprang.” (Journal of Discourses, 11:215; also Discourses
of Brigham Young, p.208)
As far as any speculation about Heavenly Mother, is it possible that there is more than one? It is my opinion, and not official doctrine in any way, that we could be the spiritual offspring of different Heavenly Mothers! Thus to so boldly declare that she is a failure because 1/3 of her children were led astray is unfair! We simply don’t know all the details!
Finally, my last issue with this audio piece is the tone. You sound like, to put it frankly, a whiny kid upset that a sibling got something they didn’t. It’s like one of those math word problems along the lines of “Gary is taller than Lesa. Lesa is a Capricorn. Together they have 4 children. Using deductive reasoning, in how many ways does their church undervalue Lesa?”. Your opinion is based on having too little information. That’s why we as members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints have to rely upon faith. We simply don’t and CAN’T know everything! If there is enough about the gospel that you DO know through personal study, revelation and spiritual confirmation then work with those things. In areas where you lack understanding, use what you have been taught and ask yourself if you are finding offense in things simply because you don’t have all the information. If so, STOP! Not only is it annoying but it is divisive. I was taught that those who find offense where none is intended are offensive.
Wow, super Christlike to completely dismiss genuine pain and hurt as “whining.” Why should women ignore the evidence that the Church does not value women and operate on the assumption that some other explanation exists and shows that women are valued, despite evidence to the contrary?
Christ taught that woe is to those who CAUSE offense, not those who are offended. (Luke 17:1)
Also, if you genuinely accept that polygamy comes from and is practiced by God, that paints a pretty bleak picture for women in the eternities.
Exactly! Is there just one Heavenly Mother? With the Mormon doctrine of polygamy (if you except it as divine and with GA’s being sealed to more than one woman it appears to still be the case in the afterlife) and, seven billion plus spirit children on the earth in mortal form, how many Heavenly Mothers are there? How do you know which is yours? Perhaps this is why we are not permitted to know Them/Her in this mortal existence.
If that’s true, the Celestial Kingdom sounds an awful lot like hell.
Another good reason to reject Mormonism entirely.
Well you can bet one of your children will because you need to pull your head out of your ass
ImaBelieverforLife, I so glad to hear you say that. I sooo agree with you, well said, here-here and huzzzah. I find myself reluctant to speak up when women protest their lot, but if I did, ALL the points you touched on are extremely relevant observations. I suppose my hope is that we can and will learn more and that we can one day replace our faith with knowledge.
I had a problem with the tone as well, but I’ve settled to the background and tend to comment less these days. From my reading of the scriptures, the saints are no stranger to serving the lord and to go unrecognized or unacknowledged and I am hesitant to believe that those unsung heroes are any less valiant or will continue to “vanish” in the world to come. I am reminded of Matthew 6:1-8 (https://www.lds.org/scriptures/nt/matt/6.1-8). The phrase that comes to mind is “…thine alms may be in secret: and thy Father which seeth in secret himself shall reward thee openly…” I suppose I even ask myself, “How much has the savior done for us that went unrecognized in his lifetime?” And I continue to find and discover ways in which even years after his sacrifice and teachings that I haven’t fully understood let alone recognized or appreciated.
I can think of at least one instance where the prophet raised himself up instead of the name of the Lord and, as a result, he was prevented from entering the promised land.
Moses at the waters of Meribah. Numbers 20:8-13; https://www.lds.org/scriptures/ot/num/20.8-13
I’ve been LDS by conversion (not sure from what, since we were not a religious family) since 14 yrs of age. I married a convert and watched her depart this life after 4 decades together. All during that time I made new discoveries as I taught doctrine to all ages. Never was I corrected by leadership, so my new insights must have been proper dogma. Now I have been doing deeper research both inside and outside LDS doctrine which has expanded my discoveries of what “is” truth. The result is that while I still acknowledge Joeph as soon true prophet and the B of M as an authentic record, it is apparent that the structure of his established “church” has many of the same issues of all religious groups, patriarichal privilege. If the Creator (God, Source, whatever) intended this inequitable division one would have to question his/her divinity. Rather, these are the faults of MEN and need to be either revised or abandoned. If you disagree, I recommend more scholarly study beyond church confines… it’s essential to “know the truth” and be truly free!
This is exactly how I have felt in the church. While many women don’t feel this way, many other women do. We are patronized with flowery words, but the actions show indifference and apathy. Actions speak louder than words to me. I was born into this church and have been a member for 40 years. The patriarchal system of the church is something I have struggled with for many years. I am finally gaining my own voice and becoming comfortable in sharing my thoughts and feelings with others, and I am so grateful when others have the courage to do the same. Thank you!
Being a Mormon is awesome if you’re a white man.
I know many colored women who think being a Mormon is awesome. So what’s your point?
Did you honestly just say ‘colored women’ in trying to defend the Mormon church? As if the LDS church didn’t already look like a throwback from the 50s. You’re not helping.
What was she supposed to call them. Black has been just as offensive to some as colored. What is the term du jour?
I doubt you know many “colored women” if that’s how you refer to them …
So true – white, male, heterosexual = privilege privilege privilege. Society is slowly changing, but in the world of the Mormons this will probably never change.
If you think that society is really making any significant changes regarding a woman’s position and treatment you are not paying enough attention. Women are not paid the same as men doing identical work. There is still no recognition that the work done in raising children ( unpaid work is work it just isn’t employment) is essential to any society. In fact a woman’s reproductive years mark her out as a liability for many employers and deny her promotions on the basis that she could at any moment need time off to have a baby . Society as a whole does not like having to work around reproduction in women because unlike with men it is disruptive by dint of the biology involved. Fathers are not pregnant for 9 months and neither do they have to be on hand to suckle an infant. Make no mistake women and their contributions are systematically undervalued in society and their specific needs ie flexible work hours, maternity leave et al are seen as nothing more than inconveniences in a male dominated world. That world decides what constitutes ‘value’ and most of the time income, status, power and influence are the indicators they use to determine it. We cannot change anything if we adopt the same indicators of value ….titles, authority, recognised status etc and fail to bring a new way of “seeing” to the table. It is hard to gain respect as women by demanding we be treated like men . We should want to be respected as we are and have our unique position acknowledged and supported rather than hearing the continual message that we can only progress in our careers if we marginalise our roles as mothers or potential mothers. I reject entirely the premise that women can only be relevant by doing things the way men do them . We should fight to have our way acknowledged and valued equally in society because it certainly isn’t at present. How people deal with those attitudes that inevitably do seep into the church from the wider population is up to them . For myself I never ever believed in infallibility at any level and I therefore do not go on the fritz when I see errors in my fellow saints. Love of money is far more widespread than subliminal sexism and nobody much worries about that probably because the majority are quite happy not to be challenged about where their treasure really lies 😉
I agree with parts of your comment and disagree with others. Large parts of the secular world (unlike the world of the church) have improved and continue to improve in many ways with gender equality. For example, in most western societies women have greater career opportunities, are more represented in politics, business and education, have easy and affordable access to contraception, safe and legal access to abortion, and paid parental leave options, We can even vote and manage our own finances 😉 There are still improvements to be made for sure, especially with regards to balancing career and motherhood, but the point of my initial comment is; the white, male, heterosexual privilege that has always existed in society is amplified in Mormonism (which is an entirely patriarchal androcentric religion) in contrast to secular society where it is becoming less of a privilege to be white, male, and heterosexual. I completely agree that the solution is not to treat women like men. That is not what gender equality means. I don’t think many women want to be treated like men, we’re not men, but I for one intend to keep striving for equality, which will never be found in the church.
My criteria in fighting for equality is how many women worldwide are affected by a particular issue . We have to prioritise . For me mormon women lamenting about lack of recognition or influence is a first world problem . Domestic violence, FGM , inequality of salary, glass ceilings, lack of political inclusion and a host of other social problems are far more pressing and detrimental to far more women .
I didn’t realize people were only allowed to care about one thing at a time.
Fair enough. For me equality within my own society is important. Mormon women make up part of my society. Lack of political representation and lack of representation/leadership in religion are in the same category to as they are both positions of power that influence the rules, regulations, and systems of the world women live in. Again, a woman has many opportunities in a political position to influence her wider world, yet a minuscule voice in the direct community she lives in (if Mormon). Still, it is totally ok that this is not an issue or priority for you. We each have our own issues and prioritise accordingly. The main thing is to support women who do feel this is a priority. After all, sexism is sexism, you either oppose it or you don’t. Likewise equality is equality, you either have it or you don’t.
Sarah, are you now or have you ever been a Mormon? This statement is so not reality. It sounds as if you have never attended the LDS Church at all.
Omg Carol, your statement sounds like you haven’t ever lived on planet earth and have no concept of the realities of the patriarchal world we live in, I mean, gee, they teach this stuff in highschool lol. Yes I have been a Mormon for most of my life. I resigned last year at age 44.
I realize some aspect of the world favor men, but to dismiss how it favors women in different ways is pessimistic. Personally, I have no qualms about any of it. I’m happy being a woman. i realize how women are abused in other cultures than my own and that makes me furious. But in my own life I don’t feel slighted in the world and especially not in the church. I just don’t see what other women are getting upset about. It simply doesn’t occur to me to feel put down. In fact I’m always surprised when I hear about this stuff.
From your comments I honestly couldn’t tell if you had ever been LDS or if you had just studied it at uni. You talk about it in a way as if you are a stranger looking in. You never really mention the spiritual side of it all. If you just can’t connect to that aspect of the gospel I can see how you would be dissatisfied. The gift of the Holy Ghost helps up to rectify all this extraneous stuff that distracts us from the real essence of the gospel. I hope you would give it another try approaching it from a less intellectual view and let the spirit tell you what is true. It works. It really does.
I certainly don’t claim that the world favours men in the way it once did, however, the white male privilege issue is real and has been a bigger problem outside of the church in the past than it is now. In the wider community we have far more equality and opportunity as women than we ever have. What I do claim though is that advancement for women does no apply in the Mormon world. As I have mentioned, this isn’t an emotional claim and therefore isn’t at all pessimistic, it’s a simple measurable fact.
I haven’t talked about the spiritual side of mormonism as to me that is beside the point. Feeling all spiritual about your role as a woman doesn’t make you measurably equal, it just keeps you content about your position. I am, in my personal life, deeply spiritual. I identify with the emotion that Jamie obviously feels in this podcast as I have felt those same “spiritual” feelings myself on various topics . However, such feelings were hard to come by as a Mormon which was why I decided to take a new approach to it to by studying it more than praying about it. After all the spirit, upon which we are told trust when seeking truth, was giving me different answers to the ones I was supposed to be receiving.
Unfortunately (or fortunately) the result was that I finally found peace and happiness leaving the church instead of struggling to stay and having to constantly rationalise faith over truth. Issues of feminism were only a small part of my leaving, I was more concerned with the bigger picture. For me the Mormon church is false, I have no spiritual feeling toward it any more and so tend to keep my discussion about it focussed on the topic at hand.
First, the music is a bit over the top. Is a Lord of the Rings movie? Sheesh.
Second, since 2004, Elder Stevenson and his wife have been working full time for the Church in various capacities – mission president, quorum of the seventy as most recently as the Presiding Bishop. With a quarter of the quorum of the twelve being replaced, don’t think it’s possible he and Lesa discussed what would happen if he were to be called? Don’t you think he was a little confident of her reaction and support. And given the record of the Church discussing callings with both spouses present, don’t you think there might be a valid explanation for why Lesa wasn’t there (one that doesn’t include conspiracy theories)?
This post makes quite a few logical leaps and really falls short. Why don’t we ask Lesa her opinion of the account. Does she feel like a second class citizen in the church? Was she furious with her husband for accepting the calling? Does she feel like she’s being asked to fade away? But why ask her when we can just fill in the blanks with emotionally-charged drivel?
Well, according to his own testimony, he was called out of a meeting to receive this call. No prior arrangements and preparation. That’s why she wasn’t there, which isn’t exactly a “valid explanation” for not including her. But beyond that, you say that “Elder Stevenson and his wife have been working full time of the Church” and then list a bunch of callings that only men can fill. That just supports what is being said in the video–he works, she is the invisible support.
You’ve obviously never been a mission president’s wife.
You mean a mission president’s wife where she tells the missionaries that they cannot go to doctors because it might cost the church money? That same woman who is then responsible for the missionary dying of something that could have been treated?
I watched my mission president’s wife. She was nothing. She stood by a very arrogant man’s side, and assumed she had responsibility too..nope. She was nothing. She did all the housewife type duties, and was treated like crap by her husband.
Isn’t this just the ancient pattern?
When Jesus called his disciples, were the wives consulted?
Jesus didn’t want them to have wives. He preached for men to abandon their families.
Why don’t we ask her how much her husband has been paid to join the hierarchy? This man is going to be paid more and more and she will get a blank check to write being his wife. She isn’t going to rock the gilded boat on the patriarch river for the sisters who are looking up for her to lead and guide them. She will remain in the boat with her husband with the golden oars and go where he leads. Otherwise she would have to stop rowing that boat and get out, leaving her children behind in the golden boat because HE OWNS THEM!
Whether or not he was confident in her reply is not the point. It’s simply rude and inconsiderate to accept something like that without bringing your wife into the discussion. It’s as presumptuous as “ordering for the lady” without consulting her, as men used to do in fancy restaurants. Even if you know she would like the lobster bisque, it’s presumptuous to not let her say so for herself.
My husband agreed. He said, “If I were in that position, I would have said, ‘I’m very flattered, but I simply cannot give you an answer without consulting my wife first. I’ll get back to you tomorrow.'” They would have waited. And they *do* have backup candidates in the unlikely event that you turn them down. Yes, the outcome would have been the same, I’m sure. (You’re only even in the running if you’re in a high position and have had your second annointing already, so you’re probably 100% committed.) Still, even if it comes to the same end result, it’s about courtesy and respect. You don’t make lifelong decisions that affect your entire family without consulting your spouse.
And maybe Mrs. Stevenson didn’t feel the least bit slighted. I highly doubt she felt offended at all. That’s not the point! The point is that Mr. Stevenson is tone deaf. He doesn’t realize that his story is painfully antiquated for today’s modern audience. When I heard it, his lack of consulting his wife was the one detail that stuck out like a sore thumb to me. Jamie’s piece shows me that I am far from alone.
I think the assumption is that he and her had reached a point in life where he had served in so many high callings that they knew she would accept.
Maybe they knew she wouldn’t have a problem with it. These people are really ‘tight’. They know each others families etc.
It’s not about whether he knew she’d support him or not. I’m sure he already knew her answer. It doesn’t change the fact that it sends a very dangerous message: that it’s okay for men to make important decisions without their wives.
to be honest, i think she might be more thrilled than him,
depending on how much she loves the Lord and his work.
maybe she instantly knew it was from god, by the spirit. maybe even before the call. she might be a highly spiritual person.
btw, the first duty of an apostle is to make sure wife is happy, comfortable and healthy.
Again, it sends a message that it’s okay for men to make life changing decisions without their wives.
“Happy, comfortable, and healthy,” are not as important as equality. Is one trying to make his little wife happy and comfortable in her little box on her little pedestal? Or are a flawed man and a flawed woman working together as equal partners for each others benefit?
My husband and I try to keep our cat happy, healthy, and comfortable. We love her lots. We dote on her. We joke about how she is the boss of us. But obviously, she isn’t REALLY the boss. She does not have the same capacity for reason as us. She does not have the same capacity for agency. We know what’s best for her, and so we are comfortable making decisions for her. We value the heck out of her, we want her to have the best cat life she can, but obviously she is not our equal.
This is reasonable behavior. She is a cat. But I’ve seen a lot of LDS men who view the their wives the way I view my cat. It isn’t hard to find teachings and anecdotes to support that view. And now there’s another anecdote to add to the pile.
These decisions can be “unmade” if necessary. I think yes it’s dangerous if a man is misusing his priesthood authority and lording it over a woman. My guess is that among the general authorities that’s never. Men like that probably never get that far in church leadership.
I would suggest reading “Letters” and any other book by Sister Hinckley. Very honest about the struggles and growth she went through as the wife of a busy apostle and then wife of the prophet. It was hard for HIM, too. What a wonderful, positive example she was to all the women of the church. I’m pretty sure President Hinckley would never have been the prophet had he been married to a whiner. Then we all would have missed out.
To be fair, I don’t think wanting to be asked makes a woman a “whiner.” If my husband were to be called as an Apostle (not likely), I would of course support him, and he would know that. I would still want to be asked, though, because that would be a gesture of respect.
How do we know that he wasn’t also told or it was assumed that he would share this with his wife and if she had negative feelings about it, the call could be removed? There was plenty of time before it was announced publicly. Was this angry woman privy to the whole conversation between the men?
One time my husband was in a university student ward bishopric and it was a really hard time for us. My mother had just died, we had just given birth to a child with a birth defect, we had just moved twice and were in a neighborhood and ward that we weren’t familiar with. And I had a 4 yr old who was throwing fits about going church because Daddy wasn’t going to church with us. We went to our home ward and my husband attended the university ward) We made the decision together that it would be better for our family if he was released from this call that was normally three years. I had as much say in this as he did. No one made us feel bad or guilty.
Things are not always as cut and dried as they appear. I think it’s only a relatively disenchanted few who see this scenario as something big and bad. Most people in the world don’t really care what we Mormons are up to, and the rest hearing this from their removed spots in the audience thought it was such an honor and how sweet of him to share this with his wife in a quiet spot on temple square. I hear that “message” and thought only of what an incredible inspiring moment it must have been for her and how humbling for him.
As I read the comments from some women in the Church criticizing Jamie for caring what Sister Stevenson might feel, I am absolutely astonished that they completely miss the point: the glaring lack of respect that was shown Sister Stevenson by not including her in this decision. It’s not about feeling bad for Sister Stevenson. It’s about calling out the hypocrisy in all the conference talks about how valuable and precious wives and mothers are, while at the same time completely neglecting one when it came to a life-altering decision. If it was impossible for her to be present in the room, President Monson should have refused to allow him to accept anything until he had discussed it with his wife. (Their own protocol suggests it.) That would have shown how valuable and precious wives and mothers really are in their minds, and given some credence to all the rhetoric.
I doubt sister Burton’s husband is distraught because his wife got called to be on the executive council. I doubt they had to ask his permission either.
You watched 10 hours of conference to find something to nitpick and that’s what you came up with?
I wonder if they watched or listened to Elder Holland’s talk? Nobody here will probably mention that, because they all just want to be offended and find fault.
Oh, when Holland warned that you’re destroying your mother if you leave the church? Hell of an uplifting message there. It doesn’t take religion to know how deep a mother’s love is. But it does take religion to arbitrarily make that child a heartbreaking disappointment to a mother.
But anyone who disagrees with you is just seeking offense and finding fault…
I just don’t get why people focus on hating something or being against something so strongly. Obviously, the person that wrote this doesn’t really believe in the Mormon teaching. So instead of just going on their way and trying to be happy about something, they’re smearing this and trying to get other people to be angry and hateful towards a religion as well. Just move on with your life? I just don’t understand why somebody would watch 10 hours of teachings JUST to find something to pick at. Why waste 10 hours of your life on something that you don’t respect or agree with?
Just do what makes you happy! If being a part of any certain organized religion makes you happy? Do it! If it doesn’t make you happy? Find something that makes you happy! Why focus on the negative.
It’s a little harder and more difficult than that, though, if you’ve been raised in the LDS church.
First off, you have your own emotional and psychological baggage, because you have been raised your entire life to think it is the One True Church and that it can and should be trusted implicitly. Then there’s the issue of the fact that the Church teaches that families will be forcibly separated in the afterlife without the Church, so parents and other family members often view leaving the Church as a direct rejection and betrayal of your family, and mourn you as if you were worse than dead (because in their view, you are). There are social consequences. Marriages often end over one spouse’s change in faith, especially in the LDS church because of its teachings on eternal marriage.
So it’s not just a matter of “doing what makes you happy” and leaving if it makes you happier. There is usually no good option in this case. You’re choosing between your family and your integrity. The best that can be hoped for is finding the answer that makes you marginally less miserable, and that’s a really, really hard call.
I’m sorry, I’m just so bothered by this, I have to make one more point. The LDS church does not TEACH or demand that women are just here and then they disappear. Make a legacy that will live on! Are you going to make a legacy as a hateful person that spreads your negative opinions about things that you really truly don’t even care about (i.e. focusing on something that makes you angry, and spreading your opinion to be facts when they are indeed NOT facts) or are you going to leave a legacy of somebody that was a beacon of hope and light in their family, somebody that was positive and nurtured good things? Choose the legacy you leave, and choose it wisely, or you WILL disappear, but that will have nothing to do with any organized religion!
Perpetuating patriarchy is not being a beacon of hope. It’s supporting oppression.
Children’s songbook, 192:
Home is where there’s father,
With strength and wisdom true.
Home is where there’s mother
And all the children too.
So what’s the preferred alternative here? A home with no father? Or a weak father? Or a foolish one? Or are you simply assuming because it’s mentioned in the hymn explicitly for the father that the traits are intentionally excluded for the mother? One of our modern day disservices is the idea that we can’t compliment or encourage any person or group of people without including every group of people; and doing such is bigotry. It’s pathetic and childish, really.
Mine is a home where ev’ry hour is blessed by the strength of priesthood pow’r,
With father and mother leading the way,
Teaching me how to trust and obey;
And the things they teach are crystal clear,
For love is spoken here.
Of course, that verse is sung by the boys, so it’s inherently sexist too, I suppose.
Yes it is sexist and even more so, all the stuff you said at the beginning of your comment. I hope you don’t have any families in your ward like the ones you criticize here. Thanks for helping me make my point.
This was excellent! Thanks for your thoughts. When I was still Mormon, the First Counselor in my ward once called me in to get my permission to extend a calling to my wife (my wife wasn’t with me). I told him that they didn’t need my permission and they should just talk to her. They said that this was church protocol. I looked it up in the Bishop’s Handbook (I had a copy) and they were wrong. They didn’t need to get my permission to extend a calling to her. I called them on it and they apologized for getting it wrong. It is just one experience among many that convinced me that in LDS Mormonism, women are treated as second class members at every juncture.
Powerful stuff Jamie. If the Mormon church was true then non of us would have a choice but to accept that God is a sexist being, for who are we to argue against an almighty God? Many have/will try to reason with the leaders in the hope that things will change, that God will reveal that members are now “ready” for women to be given the same roles within the church as men and that Heavenly Mother will also in turn take on a bigger role in church doctrines. This was where I was for a long time.
Fortunately this sort of thinking eventually leads to other questions (oh the dangers of questions) and really searching for the truth. For many this search will bring the realisation that there is no truth in Mormon doctrine; that this “equal but different” concept of gender equality that the church espouses is just a Mormon construct. For others there will be continued acceptance that this is the role that God wants for them. Some will accept it begrudgingly. Many more will accept it willingly, feeling as equally valued as men in the church. It does seem though that in recent years more and more women are standing up and asking the important questions and leaving the church behind them.
Thank you for sharing your thoughts with us Jamie. You will come under a lot of criticism from members in the church for doing so, but I can assure you that these days there is so much support out there for those who are waking up from Mormonism. You will be okay 🙂
Wow!!! This is the saddest thing I have ever heard. My son was destroyed by his father. Torn away from the church by his own father. One of these evil, so to speak men that you are talking of. The only thing it did for me was strengthen my testimony of faith, of my father in heaven, and in my belief of the true teachings of the church. “People” and I chose to say “People” not men are fallible. The church is not. It is horrible that you would take someone else’s calling from the Lord as your spring board to slander the church and try to convince women of the evils that lie within.
You state that the Church teaches that nothing but 100% retention is failure for Mormon women? I’ve been part of this Church for many decades and Never Once have I Ever heard that. You are spreading lies to promote your hate.
Pain, not hate. Ever heard of compassion and sensitivity?
I don’t think she was trying to say that it is doctrine that nothing but 100% retention is failure for Mormon women. Rather, she is saying that is often the message that comes across in LDS rhetoric. Which is true.
For the record the church handbook says “may” not “should”. I’m sorry that you feel so left out and vanished. Gratefully my wife does not feel that way, but thanks for the heads up, I’d feel terribly sad if she ever did. I’ll try to pay a closer attention to such things.
And I guess I’m little sad that you sort of twist Sister Dew’s words,as it seems pretty clear that she does not feel the same as you. That too sort of feels like a lie.
(Here is the link in case you can’t find it)
https://youtu.be/-QYlDLChzig
It’s not twisting of words, it’s a way of saying, “hey look, here’s a well known talk by Sister Dew in which she tells us what we get, but really, think about it, do you agree with her, what do LDS women REALLY get?” Your wife is like many LDS women, she is content because she “feels” equal. And that is great for her. But regardless of what she feels, Mormon women are not equal according to the definition of equal. What they actually feel is valued, which the church promotes in a very big way (“equal but different”) in order to distract from the issue of true equality. There is a growing number of women who are realising this and as a result no longer “feel” equal, or valued. Something to think about.
She didn’t twist it out of context because she didn’t understand it. She twisted it, because Sheri Dew is saying one thing, and in REALITY it’s completely the opposite. Your wife probably does feel this way, and if she doesn’t then she happily fits into the cookie cutter mold of the Utah Mormon housewife from the 1950’s. Something to think about.
Holy sh!t… it must be nice living on the top of the intellectual world. “There are 3.5 billion women in the world – they all obviously feel the same way I do. If they don’t, they’re likely unenlightened, brainwashed sheep that can’t put two coherent thoughts together without a migraine.” Congratulations on winning life!
In the same spot, raised in a church that doesn’t value me but only my excellently done tasks. It is hard to decide how much of this poison to pass on to our own kids who want to please the family but need to know that the women are not just disposable, we are already disposed.
People get upset when they are told love it or leave it, but the way this woman is rantng on in such an angry attitude it sounds like she really doesn’t want to be a member of the church. Perhaps if she were to voice her opinion in a more calm controled manner, as if she were talking to Jesus Himself, or even as if she loved the church leaders but just disagreed with them on something, people might take her more seriously, rather than write her off as an angry malcontent.
1) She did not make this video; the audio is a clip taken from a podcast as part of a larger discussion.
2) It was my impression that we were to comfort those in pain, not tell them to suck it up because we don’t like the way they’re expressing said pain.
When I first read your above response it made some sense and it made me think that thinkerofthoughts should not have presented it in the way it was done, because it comes across as just complaining from a person with an ax to grind, which most church members would find anoying.
But then I read some of the other posts and realized that, generally speaking, this site is not friendly to the church, even if the author is still a member.
To be honest, I’m not very familiar with this site – the only other thing I’ve read here is the post about the kid who committed suicide because of Kimball-era teachings on chastity.
That said, I think that “not friendly to the Church” is relative. A lot of members have a very black-and-white worldview about the Church an view anything that doesn’t fit in that paradigm as a threat. I think it’s much worse to pretend the Church is perfect and has no problems than it is to point out where there is room for improvement.
In all my 60 years in the church I have never thought it was perfect. I had my own opinions on how improvements might be made, but I also knew that if such improvements were beneficial to members in the whole world; not just to me or a small group of members, God would inspire his prophets to make such changes. Some people think the church leaders live in a vacuum and don’t know what members want. Church leaders are more concerned about what God wants for us and they pray every day to Him to know His will. There are some doctrines that can not be changed, no matter how much agitation might come from a few members.
History would suggest otherwise, but you are certainly entitled to your opinion.
you can see interviews and talks by almost all the apostles wives on byutv, byu talks, mormon channel etc. They don’t seem to be depressed at all.
Guess what the number one call is of an apostle?
to take care of his wife and make her comfortable every hour.
This isn’t a joke. All of the apostles have said this. And especially Elder Scott and President Erying lately. This makes the wives feel especially comfortable and special.
Special does not mean equal.
A Daughter of Zion, putting herself in the place of the wife of Elder
Stevenson, just called to be a special witness of Jesus Christ, a
privilege only a tiny handful of men have ever been offered in the
entire history of humanity since Adam, considers the possibility of him
turning it down due the way it will affect her life and the lives of
their children (all the possible negatives must be daunting indeed).
And then throws an indignant fit as the idolatry of ideology roars through
her psyche like a scorching pyroclastic flow, crushing and pulverizing
her faith, humility, and meekness – those all-important Christ-like
attributes – and replaces them with pride and railing accusation, the
approach of the one who goes up and down in the earth seeking whom he
may devour.
Fascinating, Captain.
It’s not about the possibility that she could have said no, nor is it about him not knowing her well enough to know for sure that she’d support him. Rather, it’s about the message that it sends: that it’s okay for men to make important decisions without their wives. I don’t think it was intentional or malicious, but that is the message that was sent and the fact that no one was thinking about it speaks volumes.
And that’s great that you had a party with your thesaurus, but I’d suggest taking a little peek in the mirror before you call anyone out for a lack of “Christlike attributes.” Her pain is real and she has every reason to feel it. There is not much hope for Mormon women in the afterlife.
I think the main thing to consider is that this person is making a big deal about something that she does not have all the facts about. From what I recall most wives of the Apostles are not included when the call is made to them. The call can include a lengthy interview and then the prophet makes a decision on the spot if the call is the right thing to do for that person. It is a private interview that the wife would not be involved in; the same as when getting a temple recommend. The wives of these men are completely dedicated to Christ and his gospel and from other stories I have read are completely overjoyed and supportive (sometimes a little surprised) when they get the call from their husbands. The husband and wife are one. When he accepts a call it is as if the wife accepts the call also.
I have never read any story of any wife that was insulted that she was not present when the call was made.
The person in the podcast is simply using an incorrect example to make her point.
Again, the point is not that she could have been unhappy. The point is that it sends a message that it’s okay for men to make life changing decisions without their wives.
But the decision to serve full time in the church had already been made by both of them. And considering the full-time service he was already inviolved in with the church this was not such a life changing decision, but a new assignment to continue serving in. The majority of the women in the church would not be bothered by this alt all. They don’t get the message that you think the church is sending to them.
I’m so glad that is reality around you, but where I live there are many sexist men who use Church teachings and anecdotes to support their own sexism and mistreatment of women. It really isn’t hard to do. I just wish that Church leaders who are in the public eye would be careful and consider how their actions and statements could be misinterpreted. Because it happens all the time.
I am sure you are right in some cases. But God knew this would happen because man has agency to choose to be that way. And because he knew it would happen he gave us a scripture to cover it:
“but when we undertake to cover our sins, or to gratify our pride, our vain ambition, or to exercise control or dominion or compulsion upon the souls of the children of men, in any degree of unrighteousness, behold, the heavens withdraw themselves; the Spirit of the Lord is grieved; and when it is withdrawn, Amen to the priesthood or the authority of that man.” (D&C 121:37)
This won’t change the behavior of all of those few men who do this, but it does put the blame directly on them and the consequences of their actions.
I get the poiint the podcaster is making but I still think she chose the wrong example to make her point. The only people who would be offended in this case are the few feminists who think every woman should be offended by it.
If the husband and wife are one then she should have been in attendance at that all important, life changing calling to give her other half support and love. She could have waited in the foyer during the interview and been brought in when the call was extended! We all know the end result would have been EXACTLY the same. The point is as husband and wife we ride through life together. We make life-changing decisions together. We include each other in these big events and respect should have been extended to his wife by requesting her company when such a massive calling was taking place. I, for one, would have been heartbroken to have missed such an opportunity to be with my husband during such an experience. Just because it wouldn’t bother you doesn’t make it right!
Please read my other responses to Ella below. Perhaps you don’t think it’s right and you would have been heartbroken but I don’t know of any women who were actually in this situation that were heartbroken that they weren’t there. It is accepted and normal procedure. The decission was alredy made as husband and wife to serve whatever the calling. I am pretty sure you will never have to deal with this sitution.
What if the man himself didn’t know he was called to be an Apostle?
Funny story.
For some reason George Albert Smith was not able to attend conference one year.
When he came home from work, his house was crawling with people. One person greeted and congratulated him.
“What is all this about?” he asked.
“Don’t you know?” she responded.
“Don’t I know what?”
“Why, you’ve been sustained as a member of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles,” the visitor exclaimed.
“That couldn’t be right,” George Albert said. “There must be some mistake.”
“I heard it myself,” she countered.
“It must have been some other Smith,” he said. “Not a word has been said to me about it, and I can’t believe it is true.”
According to the manual, the visitor went back to the Tabernacle to confirm what she had heard and discovered she was correct.”
First of all, a good Mormon accepts ANY calling he is called to, so asking his wife would be redundant in my opinion. Furthermore, if a wife were called to a position, I don’t think the husband would necessarily have to be present either. If you are feeling less than in the church maybe it is time for you to give more.
No. A good Mormon accepts a calling if they receive confirmation from the Spirit, which might come immediately or might involve asking for time to pray about it.
Well, that’s not how I was taught. The calling was given to you by the spirit in the first place. But if you doubt that, then go ahead and pray. I’ve always accepted my callings.
Mmmm not quite. Having been in auxiliary presidencies, I can tell you that at least half the time, local callings are a matter of scrambling to find someone – anyone – to fill a needed role. Especially in Primary. As it happens, I’ve never turned down a calling either, but if I didn’t feel comfortable I would pray about it before accepting. God didn’t give us a brain and the capacity to receive personal revelation only for us to blindly do what we’re told.
Well, my leaders don’t scramble and just call anyone. They pray and receive inspiration before they offer the calling. I do agree with using the brain, however there have been timed when I didn’t want a calling but believing my bishop when he told me that he was inspired when my name came up, I took the calling anyway. So far, I haven’t been led astray. May I suggest a little more faith in your leaders?
May I suggest you worship your leaders a little less? If you sat in on a leadership meeting, you would amend your views. Leaders are not perfect, and I guarantee there is some scrambling going on to fill certain callings in your ward. That doesn’t mean to default to not accepting callings, but I also think it’s judgmental and shortsighted to say that you aren’t a good Mormon if you don’t accept every calling.
Well, let’s put this back in perspective. Gary Stevenson was called to be an apostle, and you think he should have to OK that with his wife? Really!!!??? If he has to OK it with her, they are probably a sore match in the first place. This is not the same thing as your boss asking you to take a job in another state.
I think that whether he knew she would be okay with it or not is irrelevant. I’m sure he knew her well enough to know she would support him in his call. However, this sends a message that men can make life changing decisions without their wives present. An inadvertent message, I am sure. I don’t think President Monson was being malicious or deliberately exclusionary by not inviting her. I’m sure it was a very busy and chaotic week. But that is the message that was sent.
Only if you’re looking.
I live in the American South. I am all too aware of how sexist many men are here and how they use Church teachings and anecdotes to justify their treatment of women. It is a huge problem where I live. So yes, I see these things when they happen because I know how they will be used to justify deeply-held sexist beliefs.
Well, now we’ve found common ground. That is an abuse of power, and you have my full support at exposing this horrible treatment of women for what it is. Husbands and wives should work together side by side to promote the good of humanity….or God’s work. Both male and female have important roles to fulfill in society. Neither is more important than the other, they are just different.
I’m late to this party. Just saw this on facebook and I’m dismayed! Not because Sister Stevenson wasn’t there when her husband was called to be an apostle, but because all this is going on without her input. Do we even know how she, Sister Stevenson felt about how things happened? And I actually hope she doesn’t lower herself to this level to respond. She doesn’t need to. I hope this wasn’t made in a secretive effort to bait her into joining the discussion about her own private experience(to the extent that we only know one tiny smidgen of what went on). Or tempt her to feel bad about her husband’s calling. What a huge boon it would be to those crying foul to see the wife of an apostle falter. I can hear the cries of “See, see?” already. but that won’t happen because these wives, as hard as their row may be to hoe, won’t stoop to that childish level.
Here are some facts to consider. I will share my own private experience. Before my husband was called as a bishop, I was taken aside privately with the stake president and asked how I felt about this call that was about to be extended to my husband. I was asked FIRST! So to say that the wife not being involved in the asking is how it always happens is false.
Here is another fact. When Elder Stevenson was asked into President Monson’s presence to be given this call, he had already been serving full time in the Church for over a decade. He started out full time as a mission president. His wife would have been with him at the time of that call. That is when things really changed for the Stevensons, to go from part time service to full time service in the church. They had already crossed that hurdle. Then he was called to be a seventy and then the Presiding Bishop. This call to be an apostle was essentially giving him new responsibilities and opportunities. When a husband or wife is given new responsibilities at work, does the spouse need to be consulted? Not that I’ve ever heard of.
These manufactured hurts that women in the church are coming up with are such a waste. Really, aren’t there so many other more productive and uplifting ways to use one’s mental energy and effort? If you are looking for ways to be hurt, there are SO many ways to find them within this imperfect Church. If we allow that little wedge in to get started, oh the fun we can have finding things to be offended over. But, on the other hand, if we truly listen to the words of our prophet and apostles, praying to “hear” and know of their message, we will only feel love and enormous awe and respect from our leaders, male and female, for women and for the astounding amount of good they do every day.
My plea is for the sisters, and the measly men who are urging this from the sidelines, to give up the grudges and the pettiness. Rise above it. Stand up and walk away from the pity party. BE the strong women that we are meant to be. Do something good in the world rather than lowering yourself to take offense where none was ever intended. I’m convinced the Lord needs us to do this more than ever. The world is so crazy. We need the protection of the spirit and the Gospel principles and commandments to keep us and those we’re responsible for safe. I’m also absolutely sure that Satan is aiming at women in just this way because he knows how many he can take down with just one good woman who crumbles. Don’t let him do it!!
Your post wasn’t removed, Carolmac. Check the way the comments are sorted on your computer. Click “sort by newest” and yours should pop up to the top.
Thank you!
So because I have different thoughts on this, my post is removed? Wow. Now I can see clearly the agenda. So very sad for you.
It wasn’t removed.
Where is it? It was there and now it’s not.
If you check your notifications, you should see my response to your original comment, but to recap: in the top right corner, there should be a way to sort comments by “Most Recent” and it’ll pop up towards the top. It’s probably currently set to sort by the comments with the most activity, so yours is lost somewhere in the middle. Hope that helps.
I feel like this woman is blowing it out of proportion…. so… clearly I’m on the wrong website…
For my wife and myself, when a calling is issued we accept. That is our protocol. I can sympathize with wanting to be included in the calling process, but I guess I don’t see it as a travesty based on our previously established policy because we don’t view it really as a decision as to whether or not we’ll serve, but more a commandment to go and serve. Whether or not we are both in the room or not is irrelevant, the response is the same and the decision was made long before the calling was issued.
It makes me sad to hear that such a simple and innocent act inflicts so profound a trauma.
I am sorry for the hurt that I hear and feel in your voice. I’ve been twice called as a Relief Society President (in two different states) when my husband wasn’t in the room. Until this moment, I never thought of it as disregarding the handbook instructions. Maybe because I knew my husband would be supportive and that he wouldn’t be bothered by not being included? I don’t know. I can see how it hurts after listening to your passionate video. I hope you can find peace. All the best.
Can I just say – thank you for responding this way. It is so refreshing to hear someone respond not by attacking this woman in the name of “defending” the Church, and not by genuinely attacking the Church (which is not what this woman did), but by responding to a woman in pain with compassion. It’s nice to see someone who isn’t so caught up in being Mormon that they’ve forgotten to be Christian.
I know what it’s like to come from a place of hurt and when we say and type things that come from that place, things get messy quickly. I wondered if anyone would care if I responded at all since I didn’t choose a side. I normally don’t join the discussion for that reason alone. Thank you for allowing my thoughts to matter. Now to get back to the daily grind, eh? 🙂
One more thought. I have to admit I started posting on this after listening to only the first couple minutes.Later I went back and listened to the whole thing.That was some rant! This is obviously a very troubled woman. She just opened the floodgates and let it go. I can only guess at what’s really bugging her but I think that Sister Stevenson not being invited to the meeting isn’t really it. A wild assumption would be that her beef probably stems from a deep seated lack of self worth that has, in reality, less to do with her place in the church as it does the lack of attention she gets within her peers or with her husband or her parents or in her workplace. Maybe she’s recently gained weight or has failed at something she tried or …who knows?? Could be any number of things she feels insecure about. The “Church” is just the punching bag.
I was thinking that my hope for her would be to be able to have a sit down fireside chat with Sister Stevenson herself to find out what really happened and how she felt about it- to be soothed and nurtured by a woman of tremendous faith who wasn’t offended. Or if she was hurt at all, that she was so overcome with gratitude and humility for her husband’s call that any negative thought melted away. Or maybe even a sit down fireside chat with the prophet himself so that she can know and really feel of his unconditional love for every member of the Church no matter their gender. But I’m not sure either of those would be appropriate.
The first and most important thing any person, male or female with such negative attitudes towards the church needs to do is to become very introspective and root out the cause of the angst- figure out first WHaT the beast is and where it’s hiding. There is probably some repenting that needs to be done. I’m not judging her state of righteousness- just stating a TRUTH. We all need to repent- everyday! And then I would recommend that she make a big effort to come unto Christ himself- to read and ponder His words. To pray, to look for that broken heart and contrite spirit and lay them at His feet. After that’s done with sincerity and a pure heart, I’m quite positive that all the validation and love she needs as a female would come flowing to her in abundance. I just pray that something will lead her and so many others to do this. In fact, every human being could benefit by going through this process, no matter what their hang-up is. I don’t know any one who doesn’t have something that comes up to challenge their faith now and then. Some just shout louder about it than others. This woman is a shouter and unfortunately will only attract the wrong sort of comfort if she persists in demeaning the Church and it’s leaders the way she is. I ache for her. She’s on the wrong path.
Carolmac, I didn’t respond to your initial post (other than, you know, to tell you how to find it again 🙂 ) because even though I disagreed with you, it was a reasonably polite post except for the paragraph on “manufactured hurts.” This, however, seems to be an extension of your belief that any woman who is in pain as a result of Church teachings is at fault for her own pain. I don’t doubt that you mean well, but I would invite you to consider the fact that I and many other Mormon feminist women are not lashing out irrationally at the Church because of our weight (really?!) or any other insecurities.
It doesn’t take much of a stretch to understand why she and others feel bleak about the fate of women in the eternities. We are told that our role is to be a mother, and that the role of motherhood is eternal, but we do not get to see the example of our Heavenly Mother. Where is she? If motherhood is so important, why do we not need to have a relationship with Her in this brief moment that will determine our eternal fate?
Combined with the patriarchal order, polygamy, the utter lack of Heavenly Mother in the temple, and the marriage relationship as defined in the temple, I have little hope that the Celestial kingdom is a place I would want to be. Everything as it stands seems seems to point to the idea that the only role of women is to bear their husbands spirit children for eternity – along with their fellow wives – without having any kind of a relationship with their children. It sounds more like hell than paradise.
Wow. You make it sound just like you said…bleak. I have honestly never felt that way. In fact all I ever hear when I go to the temple and listen to our leaders speak is of the joy of the eternities. I don’t believe they are only speaking to the men. I challenge you to listen for the happy parts- the peace, the blessings, the joy. I have no idea exactly what we’re going to be doing for eternity but I also know we don’t have to try to understand the whole scope of eternity with our finite mortal minds. I don’t know if you’re a mom or not. I am. It has been the hardest but the most wonderful journey. The lowest lows but the highest highs. If all I ever did was raise children for eternity I think that would be pretty exciting. Never a dull moment. never fear. I believe we will all be assigned to a place and eternal occupation that suits us. I’m not a person who likes to be in spotlight, nor do I have a huge urge to do all the administrative tasks that come with being a leader or being in charge. So I don’t know actually if I’m cut out for the celestial kingdom. But it doesn’t worry me because I believe I will be happy and content wherever I end up…UNLESS all the people I love are in a higher kingdom and I don’t get to hang out with them. That’s my definition of a bleak hell.
About mother in heaven…she’s there! I believe she’s closer than we think. She’s completely aware of us and realizes the “relationship” is the way it has to be for now and she’s OK with it because earth life is such a very minuscule amount of time compared to eternity. That’s the gospel according to moi. Not doctrine but I’m very at peace with it.
Sounds like a personal problem.
I resigned from the LDS Church nearly a year ago. I have no vested interest in defending the LDS Prophets/General Leadership, I simply desire to express my opinion. The fact that Bishop Stevenson didn’t go to his wife for a approval before joining the LDS Apostles is not that strange to me. A lot of LDS couples have decided a long time ago that service in the Church will be one of their top priorities, if not their actual top priority in practice. That is their believe. If he came to the wife and asked her she may have said something like “Do you have to ask?” A lof of LDS couples have it as a creed of their united faith that they will never turn down a calling, and instead simply adjust their lives according to the calling demand. Some don’t believe or practice this. Since Bishop Stevenson was at the time of his calling already a general authority, albeit not a lifetime one, the possibility that he may be called as an LDS Seventy (and serve until he turned 70) or LDS Apostle Prophet (and serve until death) in my view probably had already been discussed between him and his wife, since in the last decade LDS General Leadership tends to promote internally/within it’s own ranks.
As to the handbook bit, I’ll quote what my “less-active”-for years best friend told me back in my TBM days: “Should doesn’t mean shall.” Guidebooks are guidelines. Furthermore, for all we know President Monson may have asked Stevenson if he wanted to discuss it with his wife, yet he simply accepted without doing so.
Now I’ll get more into why I think the lady’s issue is personal. LDS Leadership is governed by males. It is not going to change, in my opinion. It is their belief and tradition. Instead of aggressively trying to change one else (in this case, LDS general leadership’s stance) and by extension, infringe a portion of how they have decided to use their freedom of choice or agency (in their governance of the Church,) it would be more healthy to create distance or separation. If they lady in the video doesn’t think she matters, she should do things for herself that will make herself feel like she matters instead of depending on another individual or individuals to change their view and grant her the validation and appreciation she could (and perhaps should) obtain on her own independent of others.
I say “perhaps” because in some instances, creating distance and focusing on one’s self may not be enough and one has to establish separation. LDS General Authorities, to use a hypothetical extreme, may not give one iota about women; yet if a women/individual should not give too much emotional weight to distant organizational leadership’s estimation of them or of their expectation on how they should run their lives. The solution is to replace those feelings of unappreciation with healthy relationship where one feels valued and appreciated, whether it be friends, a significant other, or a spouse, In my view, when this area of one’s life’s is deficient and not given enough emotional weight, the remaining emotional weight is unhealthy distributed to other areas (that are not meant to be given such weight in order to produce joyous results; in many cases religion, because believe that is where they will find the most love to fill that void.) If the lady doesn’t feel like she matters, to me that is a red flag that her relationship with her husband, children, or others who play a prominent role within her immediate/close sphere of interrelation may be currently strained, have been strained for a long time, and or/may currently be non-existent. Lately I have marvelled as I realize how much humans, myself included, need affection in order to feel valued and happy. If the spheres of influence where one attains affection are beyond repair or non-existent one needs to replace or establish them. There is a degree where one ought to do things for themselves, independently of others, and their is a degree where individuals need others to feel appreciated, valued, and loved. I feel closest to God when a have a good time with others or when I love or am loved by others because to a certain extent it is something outside my control. Sure, I need to find or work at relationships. Yet I do not control that fact that others want to love and be loved. Those little bonds of affection make me think that it is God’s grace, and that he operates that way too.
Life is too short to give LDS problems too much weight. Life is too short not to spend the majority of it being happy.
I appreciate the insight I received from listening to the whole of this video. I doubt I would have been exposed to this perspective otherwise. I am sorry for the frustration and the hurt you seem to feel. I do not have any easy answers to console or empathize or offer meaningful advice. I am sorry for these faults.
I can however take this perspective to heart and considerate the points that might enable for a more meaningful future marriage and practice of my beliefs as a man. I have served in various functions in my faith and will continue to do so. I hope to incorporate more of the impressions I received after thinking about this in my daily interaction with the women in my life.
I have faith in Heavenly Parents that love us. I know, by my own experience, that diligent faithful meek and patient searching renders to us wisdom comfort and answers to our doubts fears and concerns. Many concerns addressed and shared in this post are of a temporal and finite measure. This does not mean they are irrelevant or wrong. It is important to keep things in their own perspective.
With any concern or doubt or hardness of heart I have had, I remember that all truth is part of a greater whole and rather than justifying my own blindness, I must seek after those parts that for a time and reason are too great or obscure to me to understand now.
So thank you for your perspective. I wish you peace and understanding. May we both find answers and comfort.